Football 2015/16

[pink_triangle]

There have been many. 4:4 against Liverpool not entertaining enough? In fact that was the same season we played Utd in the final, I think.  And several against Barca. The 3:1 and 4:2 wins are 2 of my favourite games ever. And just last season we won 5:0 and 6:0 but those results may have passed you by. Although i'll accept comfortable Chelsea wins aren't really enjoyable for someone who doesn't support Chelsea. 

The part you quoted was my opinion which was based on facts I posted (about money) to support it. Tbh, i'm starting to think you're just trying to be contrary for the hell of it. I posted a well reasoned opinion supported by facts and you have edited it to score points or something, I dunno. At least be fair to my point when debating or don't bother.

I had forgotten the 5-0, actually Chelsea did play well in that game, admittedly with Schalke doing the bottling job they often do against the big teams. I wouldn't dispute the 4-4 game happened, its just lost in my mind amongst the turgid ones.

I also dispute the strength of the premiership also rans based on money spent. Premiership teams also play inflated fees compared to mid table premiership sides, which account for some of the extra spent. Mid table premiership teams may be able to attract the likes of Payet and Ayew, but I think theres little evidence to suggest that they would beat their counterparts in other top leagues, they certainly don't stand out in the Europa league. I have no doubt that Barcelona and Real Madrid would dispatch of mediocre premiership sides, just as easy as they do with those in their own league.

[TheGayTent]

Is that an apology I hear? Or even a gracious backing down and an acceptance that you were wildly incorrect? No? Ok, we'll leave it there then. No point in debating with someone who's not man enough to admit their mistakes.

Amusing - running away now you've been called out?

West Ham were challenging for the title right up to the 2nd last game of the season before Sullivan and Gold took over...

No answer to the questions posed either. What a surprise...

Edited September 21, 2015 by TheGayTent

[Gucci Piggy]

Does it have to be either/ or though? I'd like a competitive league AND English teams doing well in Europe.

You just said one of the main reasons for English teams not progressing far in the CL was because there are less "gimme" games in the PL and therefore less chance to rest players.

So it's you who suggested that it is either/or...

[Celery]

I had forgotten the 5-0, actually Chelsea did play well in that game, admittedly with Schalke doing the bottling job they often do against the big teams. I wouldn't dispute the 4-4 game happened, its just lost in my mind amongst the turgid ones.

I also dispute the strength of the premiership also rans based on money spent. Premiership teams also play inflated fees compared to mid table premiership sides, which account for some of the extra spent. Mid table premiership teams may be able to attract the likes of Payet and Ayew, but I think theres little evidence to suggest that they would beat their counterparts in other top leagues, they certainly don't stand out in the Europa league. I have no doubt that Barcelona and Real Madrid would dispatch of mediocre premiership sides, just as easy as they do with those in their own league.

I'm not gonna deny we have turgid games but so do all the other English teams. And I don't doubt Chelsea can be dull to watch at times, mainly due to our tight defence (not this season obv) and cautious tactics. But then i would also say that those factors are also a prime reason why we have been so successful in Europe. Arsenal, certainly, could do with imitating those tactics but of course that's not Wenger's way, for better or worse. Liverpool used similar tactics under Rafa and had great success. Utd under LVG play a similar style and will probably have a fairly decent run this year imho. 

I think looking at the relative goal differences gives an indication that our league is stronger. 5 teams in the prem had a goal difference of less than -20 last season, 9 in La Liga. I can't be arsed to look at individual games but i'd say that indicates they took a fair few batterings from the big guns. With regards their performance in Europe, that's a whole new kettle of fish. The English style of play doesn't tend to be too successful in Europe, which is why gung-ho Arsenal and City seldom do well, whereas the more cautious Chelsea & Liverpool have been more successful. 

[Celery]

You just said one of the main reasons for English teams not progressing far in the CL was because there are less "gimme" games in the PL and therefore less chance to rest players.

So it's you who suggested that it is either/or...

I haven't. That's one of many reasons for it but not an excuse. English teams need to handle it better and the EPL needs to do more to support this, for example by having a winter break. 

[pink_triangle]

I think looking at the relative goal differences gives an indication that our league is stronger. 5 teams in the prem had a goal difference of less than -20 last season, 9 in La Liga. I can't be arsed to look at individual games but i'd say that indicates they took a fair few batterings from the big guns.

I would argue that's largely down to the fact that the top 2 teams in La Liga last season (who are largely responsible for those goal differences) were much better teams than the top 2 in the premiership. They also each have one of the best attacking players in football history.

I have no doubt if you swapped the Spanish giants with City and Chelsea the goal differences in the league would have looked very different. As a comparison I looked at the teams that finished 7th (Southampton/Bilbao) and 14th (Leicester/Levante) and I don't believe the English teams were better.

[Celery]

I would argue that's largely down to the fact that the top 2 teams in La Liga last season (who are largely responsible for those goal differences) were much better teams than the top 2 in the premiership. They also each have one of the best attacking players in football history.

I have no doubt if you swapped the Spanish giants with City and Chelsea the goal differences in the league would have looked very different. As a comparison I looked at the teams that finished 7th (Southampton/Bilbao) and 14th (Leicester/Levante) and I don't believe the English teams were better.

Quite possibly you're right there. No disputing Real & Barca are better than us and City. It's all a matter of opinions anyway, no way to prove this kind of thing as there are so many variables between leagues. Still fun to debate though. 

Right, knackered now and I have the shitty class to teach tomorrow morning. I enjoyed this. Until next time

Edited September 21, 2015 by Celery

[mjsell]

Chelsea also won more in the 10yrs before Abramovich than Arsenal have won in the last 10.

I really enjoy this comment.

So you mean to tell me that it was easier to win trophies before rich owners came into the league? I would never have guessed.

[Gucci Piggy]

Also still baffles me how people always mention Arsenal's lack of success over those 10 years as though they weren't financing a new stadium and having to sell on any remotely decent player they had.

To do as well as they did with players like Almunia, Djourou, Squillaci, Denilson, etc. having first team roles is impressive.

[Celery]

I really enjoy this comment.

So you mean to tell me that it was easier to win trophies before rich owners came into the league? I would never have guessed.

 

Whoooosh! That was the sound of the point flying over your head. Where on earth have I said anything at all along those lines? Please read my words without being so defensive. If you read the conversation I was having before butting in and you will see I wasn't even making a point about Arsenal, they were merely used as a comparison. 

 

Also still baffles me how people always mention Arsenal's lack of success over those 10 years as though they weren't financing a new stadium and having to sell on any remotely decent player they had.

To do as well as they did with players like Almunia, Djourou, Squillaci, Denilson, etc. having first team roles is impressive.

Each to their own I guess. For a 'big' club to go pretty much a decade without a trophy is shocking. But again, the point wasn't even about Arsenal. You guys are fulfilling the stereotype of the internet Arsenal fan 100%. Not every conversation is about your club. Arsenal were merely used as an example when one uninformed wally tried to claim Chelsea were nothing before Abramovich, which I clearly proved incorrect. 

Edited September 22, 2015 by Celery

[mrtourette]

The Champions League has too many teams in general, I don't think cutting an English team to replace it with an Italian one (or whoever it may be) will solve anything. I don't really see how it would improve the quality of the national league/s either, Man Utd spending money hand over fist to get back into the top four hasn't exactly improved their performances or the quality of the Premier League. The power and lure of the Champions League needs to be weakened in order to see any benefit to the national game, creating even more desperation to get in to claim the big bucks and attract the best players is only going to lead to more imbalance and a greater gap between the perennial qualifiers and the rest.

[TheGayTent]

Arsenal were merely used as an example when one uninformed wally tried to claim Chelsea were nothing before Abramovich, which I clearly proved incorrect.

More inaccuracies!

You mentioned Arsenal in a vain attempt to substantiate your mad theory that other clubs should be ever so grateful to Chelsea for being successful in Europe.

[mrtourette]

If there's one thing that (I think) celery has said that makes sense it's that hating on Costa is a waste of time. He's a shitbag but so what, just deal with it. Don't hate the player, hate the game. Mike Dean should be fucking embarrassed for the way he refereed that situation.

Edited September 22, 2015 by mrtourette

[eFestivals]

hey, if we're going to talk Chelsea before Abramovic then we need to talk massive MASSIVE! financial fraud!

[thetime]

Is this fact or myth?

Whoever got champions league football out of Liverpool or Chelsea abromovic would of bought?

[TheGayTent]

Is this fact or myth?

Whoever got champions league football out of Liverpool or Chelsea abromovic would of bought?

No idea. It was widely reported though that he made enquiries about Tottenham prior to turning his attention to Chelsea.

[eFestivals]

Is this fact or myth?

 

about Ken Bates?

 

Fact.

[mrtourette]

Is this fact or myth?

Whoever got champions league football out of Liverpool or Chelsea abromovic would of bought?

 

Sound like a load of shit to me. Abramovich doesn't seem like the kind of guy who'd be interested in mooring his yacht in Liverpool docks.

[ThomThomDrum]

Abramovich wanted a toy in London. Anfield was not in the right neighbourhood for his new money

 

 

I'm not judging you personally, but I just think it's a bit sad when fans take delight in the failure of others. 

 

Thats football.

 

Only, what?,  ~5% of teams will win anything in a given season? So 95% of teams are losers. There is a hell of of a lot more failure in football than success. So as fans of such a game one would want to revel in the failure of others to get the most enjoyment out of it. I think that's what is referred to by the youf today and the bantz. Plenty of that stuff on here. I think most of the enjoyment in reality comes from fans having a laugh at the expense of rival failure because the likelihood of their team not being successful if pretty high...........

[The Nal]

Fergies newest is interesting. He refused Aguero!

[ThomThomDrum]

Fergies newest is interesting. He refused Aguero!

 

The "what ifs" in football are a pointless source of annoyance and frustration for me. Its best to ignore them. LFC have way too many and Im sure its the same for many a club 

[pink_triangle]

.

Each to their own I guess. For a 'big' club to go pretty much a decade without a trophy is shocking. But again, the point wasn't even about Arsenal.

Is it not possible for a fan to take enjoyment based on quality of football, rather than quantity of trophys? I'm sure arsenal would have liked to win more silverware, but there are external factors in play.

City and chelsea being bankrolled has made it hard for clubs being run as a business in the same time. Not that its a bad thing, arsenal and man u exchanging titles wasn't great either.

[TheGayTent]

The "what ifs" in football are a pointless source of annoyance and frustration for me. Its best to ignore them. LFC have way too many and Im sure its the same for many a club

Yes.

Ron Greenwood was offered Gordon Banks but turned him down as he'd already made a gentleman's agreement to sign Bobby Ferguson...had that verbal promise not been kept West Ham would have had 4 World Cup winners playing in the same side.

Much later Redknapp turned down the then virtual unknown (in european circles) Marcelo Salas, who instead went to Lazio and scored for fun.

There are loads.

[mjsell]

Whoooosh! That was the sound of the point flying over your head. Where on earth have I said anything at all along those lines? Please read my words without being so defensive. If you read the conversation I was having before butting in and you will see I wasn't even making a point about Arsenal, they were merely used as a comparison. 

 

Each to their own I guess. For a 'big' club to go pretty much a decade without a trophy is shocking. But again, the point wasn't even about Arsenal. You guys are fulfilling the stereotype of the internet Arsenal fan 100%. Not every conversation is about your club. Arsenal were merely used as an example when one uninformed wally tried to claim Chelsea were nothing before Abramovich, which I clearly proved incorrect. 

 

I try desperately hard to not stereotype football fans from certain clubs because I understand that the few create a poor image for the many, but my god reading the last few pages you have portrayed the bad about Chelsea fans with an incredible ability.  

 

Just complete naivety, delusions of grandeur, stubborn lack of knowledge and blatant hypocrisy. You've made me as frustrated with football as the match on Saturday - and I can understand the actions of the Chelsea players because they do it to try and be successful, whereas your defence of the incidents that occurred were just mind boggling

 

Like someone has said it is not the fault of Costa but the way the game was refereed, and I think more generally how football has evolved to allow cheating behaviour and general pushing of moral boundaries. I think I counted enough things that happened that could have seen 5 or 6 bookings for Costa.    

 

Edit: Oh and also, using Arsenal in a comparison is 100% making a point about them, whether you think you are or not.

Edited September 22, 2015 by mjsell

[Gucci Piggy]

Whoooosh! That was the sound of the point flying over your head. Where on earth have I said anything at all along those lines? Please read my words without being so defensive. If you read the conversation I was having before butting in and you will see I wasn't even making a point about Arsenal, they were merely used as a comparison.

Each to their own I guess. For a 'big' club to go pretty much a decade without a trophy is shocking. But again, the point wasn't even about Arsenal. You guys are fulfilling the stereotype of the internet Arsenal fan 100%. Not every conversation is about your club. Arsenal were merely used as an example when one uninformed wally tried to claim Chelsea were nothing before Abramovich, which I clearly proved incorrect.

I don't support Arsenal

Edit: And anyway you said "Chelsea also won more in the 10yrs before Abramovich than Arsenal have won in the last 10", which is what my post was obviously relating to, so yes, it was about Arsenal.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Will-2609