Football 2015/16

[Wooderson]

Big club, big history (even if its condensed into a 15 year period)

[Wooderson]

Snide, Nal.

[The Nal]

Was hoping someone would twig that!

[Celery]

Is it not possible for a fan to take enjoyment based on quality of football, rather than quantity of trophys? I'm sure arsenal would have liked to win more silverware, but there are external factors in play.

City and chelsea being bankrolled has made it hard for clubs being run as a business in the same time. Not that its a bad thing, arsenal and man u exchanging titles wasn't great either.

Of course it is, but the main measure of success for the top clubs is trophies and maybe CL qualification for the clubs in the next bracket down - eg Spurs. Admittedly, that only refers to about 5 clubs at the mo. It's all relative to the status and positioning of the club. Liverpool, for example, are failing at the mo while someone like Watford are successful. Arsenal, however, are probably the 2nd/ 3rd biggest club in the country and not winning trophies for a decade should considered a failure, and is so by the majority of supporters. 

[Celery]

I try desperately hard to not stereotype football fans from certain clubs because I understand that the few create a poor image for the many, but my god reading the last few pages you have portrayed the bad about Chelsea fans with an incredible ability.  

 

Just complete naivety, delusions of grandeur, stubborn lack of knowledge and blatant hypocrisy. You've made me as frustrated with football as the match on Saturday - and I can understand the actions of the Chelsea players because they do it to try and be successful, whereas your defence of the incidents that occurred were just mind boggling

 

If you're going to disagree and attempt to make a valid point, then you should at least attempt to back it up with reasoning as Pink Triangle has.  Otherwise I cannot take you seriously. You've made all sorts of emotive claims, yet haven't evidenced or explained a single one. I don't even know what the general opinion on Chelsea fans is, but I can tell you I have had a fair few run-ins with some of them over their behaviour at games. Personally, i would consider myself an atypical blue, but that's well, you know, that's just like my opinion, man. 

 

Like someone has said it is not the fault of Costa but the way the game was refereed, and I think more generally how football has evolved to allow cheating behaviour and general pushing of moral boundaries. I think I counted enough things that happened that could have seen 5 or 6 bookings for Costa.    

 

Good job you're not a ref then or there would be very few games finishing 11 v 11. 

 

Edit: Oh and also, using Arsenal in a comparison is 100% making a point about them, whether you think you are or not.

 

As the person who made the point, I think I am the one who can say what point I was making. If you interpret it another way then that's your prerogative. I have no beef with Arsenal whereas several people on here clearly have a dislike of Chelsea, for whatever reason. 

Edited September 22, 2015 by Celery

[Celery]

Abramovich wanted a toy in London. Anfield was not in the right neighbourhood for his new money

 

 

 

Thats football.

 

Only, what?,  ~5% of teams will win anything in a given season? So 95% of teams are losers. There is a hell of of a lot more failure in football than success. So as fans of such a game one would want to revel in the failure of others to get the most enjoyment out of it. I think that's what is referred to by the youf today and the bantz. Plenty of that stuff on here. I think most of the enjoyment in reality comes from fans having a laugh at the expense of rival failure because the likelihood of their team not being successful if pretty high...........

As i just posted elsewhere, success is relative to the standing of the club but for Arsenal it should certainly be trophies or at the very least, regular decent runs in Europe. 

 

I take some enjoyment in the defeats of Chelsea's rivals when it affects my own team - the league & domestic cups. But that's usually because it makes the chances of success greater for my club. I'm not the kind of person to laugh at other people's failure, whereas others are. Each to their own. I'm not trying to take the moral high ground, just explaining my beliefs. 

[thetime]

Gabriel red card over turned.

[Gucci Piggy]

Huh, I thought his red was deserved tbh.

Edit: And so did most Arsenal fans from what I saw.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Will-2609

[Celery]

Huh, I thought his red was deserved tbh.

Edit: And so did most Arsenal fans from what I saw.

Well the actual kick (if you can call it that) wasn't shown on BT/ Sky/ MOTD, as it was too low for the cameras, if you know what i mean. Having seen this angle this morning https://streamable.com/qk8p?t=0.0 I would tend to agree with the FA, though he probably deserved a red for 2 yellows. The fact it was a straight red has actually turned out to be quite fortunate for him. 

Yet another thing we disagree on. Ha!

Oh, and apparently Brazilian commentators lipread him calling Costa a motherfucker and a traitor to his country. 

Edited September 22, 2015 by Celery

[eFestivals]

Huh, I thought his red was deserved tbh.

Edit: And so did most Arsenal fans from what I saw.

 

yep, me too.

 

It did look cheap alongside Costa's antics tho.

[thetime]

He's been charged anyway, so will no doubt still get a 3 game ban.

[pink_triangle]

. Arsenal, however, are probably the 2nd/ 3rd biggest club in the country and not winning trophies for a decade should considered a failure, and is so by the majority of supporters.

Being a "big" club doesn't win you trophies. The only thing that does is cold hard cash. I think all the main European leagues were won by teams with a top 3 wage budget in their respective league, almost all were top 2.

[Gucci Piggy]

Forgot that Gabriel got a straight red for the "kick"; was thinking he'd been given a second yellow and that had been rescinded. In that case yeah, fair decision as it wasn't a straight red. As said though, he's been charged with violent conduct so will get a ban anyway. He has until after the Spurs game to respond to it, though, so gets to play in that.

He should be banned for being an absolute brainfart and stalking around the pitch like a maniac after being shown red, anyway.

[pink_triangle]

Stolen from football weekly

What's the difference between Daniel Sturridge and David Cameron?

One likes hogging the ball, the other likes balling the hog!

[Celery]

Being a "big" club doesn't win you trophies. The only thing that does is cold hard cash. I think all the main European leagues were won by teams with a top 3 wage budget in their respective league, almost all were top 2.

When I pointed out the financial advantage English teams had over European teams, you said it was irrelevant. Now it's the only thing that wins trophies. You can't have it both ways. Winning games wins you trophies, nothing else. And to do that, you need a decent, ambitious manager. Though obviously having money helps. The top 6 in England are all rolling in it so no excuses for any of them. Wigan won the cup and spent bugger all so you don't necessarily need it either. Swansea and Saints are successful in their own right without buying £20m players - it's wouldn't be shock of the century if the Swans won a cup this season. 

[Celery]

Stolen from football weekly

What's the difference between Daniel Sturridge and David Cameron?

One likes hogging the ball, the other likes balling the hog!

I did a literal spit-take this morning when I heard that one

[Celery]

In other news, Lewandowski's just done this:

https://streamable.com/9k7j?t=0.0

 

Pep's face says it all. 5 goals in under 9mins

 

Edited September 22, 2015 by Celery

[DomDom1984]

Motherwell

 

Great performance tonight from Morton to cause a wee bit of an upset. Alex Samuel from Swansea looks like a cracking player.

[Gucci Piggy]

When I pointed out the financial advantage English teams had over European teams, you said it was irrelevant. Now it's the only thing that wins trophies. You can't have it both ways. Winning games wins you trophies, nothing else. And to do that, you need a decent, ambitious manager. Though obviously having money helps. The top 6 in England are all rolling in it so no excuses for any of them. Wigan won the cup and spent bugger all so you don't necessarily need it either. Swansea and Saints are successful in their own right without buying £20m players - it's wouldn't be shock of the century if the Swans won a cup this season. 

 

But winning the League Cup doesn't really mean much, does it? Arsenal could have won it the year they lost to Birmingham if it wasn't for one fuck up at the end, but if they had won it it wouldn't have shown them to be any better of a team. Add to that the fact that mid-table teams can afford to concentrate on cups whilst Arsenal have usually been in a pretty competitive race to either make top 4 or to win the league.

 

If Wenger had won a couple of League Cups in those 9 barren years I don't think it could have been classed as much more of a success than it actually was.

[Celery]

But winning the League Cup doesn't really mean much, does it? Arsenal could have won it the year they lost to Birmingham if it wasn't for one fuck up at the end, but if they had won it it wouldn't have shown them to be any better of a team. Add to that the fact that mid-table teams can afford to concentrate on cups whilst Arsenal have usually been in a pretty competitive race to either make top 4 or to win the league.

 

If Wenger had won a couple of League Cups in those 9 barren years I don't think it could have been classed as much more of a success than it actually was.

Who said anything about the league cup? Wigan won the FA Cup mate. I would also contest the point that it doesn't mean much. Seems an incredibly arrogant POV. Try telling that to the Arsenal players after the Brum final, they were absolutely devastated. We also had incredibly tight and hotly contested games against 'Pool & Spurs in the semi and final last season. And one look at City's team tonight shows you they're taking it seriously. 

[Gucci Piggy]

Who said anything about the league cup? Wigan won the FA Cup mate. I would also contest the point that it doesn't mean much. Seems an incredibly arrogant POV. Try telling that to the Arsenal players after the Brum final, they were absolutely devastated. We also had incredibly tight and hotly contested games against 'Pool & Spurs in the semi and final last season. And one look at City's team tonight shows you they're taking it seriously. 

 

Fair enough about Wigan; forgot it was the FA Cup they won. Was also in response to your final sentence, about teams just winning a trophy.

 

I didn't say teams don't care about it or take it seriously; I'm saying winning a cup isn't a surefire way of showing success. A team can get an easy run all the way through the competition and win it; a team can get knocked out due to one wrong decision; etc.

 

Over those 9 years I mentioned, Wenger finished in the top four each season, in unfavourable circumstances, which I deem as being successful. Due to the nature of a league, it's obviously a more reliable way of judging who is the best. If Wenger had won a couple of League Cups in that time as well, I don't think I'd him as being much more successful in that time than he was. In reality all it would equate to is a couple of extra wins over those 9 years, which could have been won in any fashion.

 

Now looking at my posts it seems I'm completely devaluing cup wins. I'm not; I just agree with Wenger in that him securing 4th each season was more important than trying to win League Cups/FA Cups, so I think more of a deal is made about those 9 years than should be. For teams who aren't so desperately battling for a certain position in the league, it's great to concentrate on cups, but some things are more important for other clubs.

[Celery]

Fair enough about Wigan; forgot it was the FA Cup they won. Was also in response to your final sentence, about teams just winning a trophy.

 

I didn't say teams don't care about it or take it seriously; I'm saying winning a cup isn't a surefire way of showing success. A team can get an easy run all the way through the competition and win it; a team can get knocked out due to one wrong decision; etc.

 

Over those 9 years I mentioned, Wenger finished in the top four each season, in unfavourable circumstances, which I deem as being successful. Due to the nature of a league, it's obviously a more reliable way of judging who is the best. If Wenger had won a couple of League Cups in that time as well, I don't think I'd him as being much more successful in that time than he was. In reality all it would equate to is a couple of extra wins over those 9 years, which could have been won in any fashion.

 

Now looking at my posts it seems I'm completely devaluing cup wins. I'm not; I just agree with Wenger in that him securing 4th each season was more important than trying to win League Cups/FA Cups, so I think more of a deal is made about those 9 years than should be. For teams who aren't so desperately battling for a certain position in the league, it's great to concentrate on cups, but some things are more important for other clubs.

You've bought Wenger's line that top 4 is a trophy, hook, line and sinker. Most Arsenal fans wouldn't agree. I know several with season tickets and they all consider that period a huge failure. Again, each to their own, but I think you should be more ambitious. In 20yrs time, are you going to reminisce about the cup wins, or the year you qualified from the group stage and lost to an average Milan team, for example. 

On another note, it was good to hear most of the journalists on the Game podcast basically saying all the same things I had said about Costa. But some of you would probably just say they are c***s/ scumbags/ whatever else i've been called. 

[mrtourette]

Stolen from football weekly

What's the difference between Daniel Sturridge and David Cameron?

One likes hogging the ball, the other likes balling the hog!

 

You deserve that downvote for just thinking that's worthwhile posting.

[pink_triangle]

 

When I pointed out the financial advantage English teams had over European teams, you said it was irrelevant. Now it's the only thing that wins trophies. You can't have it both ways. Winning games wins you trophies, nothing else. And to do that, you need a decent, ambitious manager. Though obviously having money helps. The top 6 in England are all rolling in it so no excuses for any of them. Wigan won the cup and spent bugger all so you don't necessarily need it either. Swansea and Saints are successful in their own right without buying £20m players - it's wouldn't be shock of the century if the Swans won a cup this season.

 

If I used the world irrelevant then I was incorrect. Finance is clearly an issue where the gap is huge between England and the smaller European nations. Although looking at the smaller teams that regularly knock English ones out of the Europa league you wouldnt realize it!.

However as that gap narrows it becomes less important. There is also the case that a Spanish team will probably pay less money for an equivalent player than a premiership team, with foregin clubs knowing there is more money around the EPL. As I have said when it comes to England V Spain I have no doubt that teams of equal postiion would be equally matched.

Its great to win cups, but there is an element of luck involved in a random draw. The league is the best way of assessing a teams strength and leagues in Europe are almost all dominated by the big spenders in their league. Arsenal maybe should have won more trophies, although 2 FA cups in 2 years isnt a bad start.

As other have said its also in context of Arsenal building a stadium and possibly thinking they would take advantage when financial fair play was implemented. Im personlly glad they havent as I felt it was just about protecting the big boys. Arsenal fans may not be happy that they arent winning league titles, but maybe have to be more realistic.

[pink_triangle]

 

Unfortunately he's right. The fans (me included (I'm not an Arsenal fan I just mean football fan)) don't agree, but Arsene has to answer to his bosses. And for them, especially with the new stadium et al, top 4 was the benchmark. You're forgetting that's it's a busines these days and there are two measures of success. Unfortunately, the fans' and owners' wishes rarely coincide.

Although as fans of many clubs will tell you, not running a club as a business can lead to its own problems as well.