Are Poems The Right Way To Discuss Issues?

[feral chile]

but only if that 'getting along' is to the rules you dictate, yeah?

I mentioned the "let's all get along" fallacy, and then you go and do it. Priceless.

well I don't think celery invented social rules, and the power of positive language has science behind it, so I don't really understand your objection.

[eFestivals]

well I don't think celery invented social rules, and the power of positive language has science behind it, so I don't really understand your objection.

because your line of "the power of positive language" is all your own definition for your own benefit.

It is an attempt to declare that you decide the rules of discussion, what can be said and what cannot, and how it can be said.

It's the very opposite of intellectualism. It is protectionism of what you have decided is right for everyone, regardless of whether it actually is or not. It is the end of intellectual challenge.

It's no less bullying than bullying.

Edited October 23, 2015 by eFestivals

[feral chile]

because your line of "the power of positive language" is all your own definition for your own benefit.

It is an attempt to declare that you decide the rules of discussion, what can be said and what cannot, and how it can be said.

It's the very opposite of intellectualism. It is protectionism of what you have decided is right for everyone, regardless of whether it actually is or not.

it's a 'soft skill' that's part of any social skills, assertiveness, or negotiation skills training.

[eFestivals]

it's a 'soft skill' that's part of any social skills, assertiveness, or negotiation skills training.

or alternatively, it's about manipulating and controlling people, to make you feel safe in your fluffy little world that no one is allowed to challenge.

Just because you don't like something doesn't get to mean that what you don't like is wrong.

What aren't you getting about your declared tory-ism?

[feral chile]

or alternatively, it's about manipulating and controlling people, to make you feel safe in your fluffy little world that no one is allowed to challenge.

Just because you don't like something doesn't get to mean that what you don't like is wrong.

What aren't you getting about your declared tory-ism?

No, it's only that if people abuse it

 

Here:

http://work911.com/articles/poslan.htm

compare

"We regret to inform you that we cannot process your application to register your business name, since you have neglected to provide sufficient information.  Please complete ALL sections of the attached form and return it to us."

with

"Congratulations on your new business.  To register your business name, we need some additional information.  If you return the attached form, with highlighted areas filled in, we will be able to send you your business registration certificate within two weeks.  We wish you success in your new endeavor."

One is judgemental and potentially alienating,  the other is inclusive and helpful. The style of delivery as at least as important as the content, much more so, because every time we communicate, we're communicating much more than we think.

[eFestivals]

No, it's only that if people abuse it

 

Here:

http://work911.com/articles/poslan.htm

compare

"We regret to inform you that we cannot process your application to register your business name, since you have neglected to provide sufficient information.  Please complete ALL sections of the attached form and return it to us."

with

"Congratulations on your new business.  To register your business name, we need some additional information.  If you return the attached form, with highlighted areas filled in, we will be able to send you your business registration certificate within two weeks.  We wish you success in your new endeavor."

One is judgemental and potentially alienating,  the other is inclusive and helpful. The style of delivery as at least as important as the content, much more so, because every time we communicate, we're communicating much more than we think.

nope, the second is merely pandering to your preconceptions, that uncomfortable truths needs to flatter you because that's how special and important you are - when you're not.

Challenge everything, including yourself.

 

Edited October 23, 2015 by eFestivals

[feral chile]

nope, the second is merely pandering to your preconceptions, that uncomfortable truths needs to flatter you because that's how special and important you are - when you're not.

Challenge everything, including yourself.

 

preconceptions? My personal ones, or psychologists? google positive language, and you'll find that it's used throughout society, from schools to business.

it's also basic assertiveness - you deliver uncomfortable truths in a respectful way, not by avoiding them or by being aggressive with them.

Being respectful and empathic isn't manipulative, or a copout - it's simply acknowledging the other person's perspective.

[eFestivals]

preconceptions? My personal ones, or psychologists? google positive language, and you'll find that it's used throughout society, from schools to business.

it's also basic assertiveness - you deliver uncomfortable truths in a respectful way, not by avoiding them or by being aggressive with them.

Being respectful and empathic isn't manipulative, or a copout - it's simply acknowledging the other person's perspective.

But it's pre-deciding that person is a sensitive little flower who needs to be patronised because they can't handle straight facts.

You gave two examples of a response, where you say the first was wrong and the second is right. And yet there's no issues with the first one, but your world says it's hurtful.

I say it's laughable.

I say the person who needs it done in the second way has waaaaay bigger social issues than anyone who might deliver the words in the first way.

[eFestivals]

so true

it's acknowledging the person's inability to deal with things they might find difficult to deal with.

Get the fuck over yourself, and grow up, FFS.

 

[russycarps]

No, it's only that if people abuse it

 

Here:

http://work911.com/articles/poslan.htm

compare

"We regret to inform you that we cannot process your application to register your business name, since you have neglected to provide sufficient information.  Please complete ALL sections of the attached form and return it to us."

with

"Congratulations on your new business.  To register your business name, we need some additional information.  If you return the attached form, with highlighted areas filled in, we will be able to send you your business registration certificate within two weeks.  We wish you success in your new endeavor."

One is judgemental and potentially alienating,  the other is inclusive and helpful. The style of delivery as at least as important as the content, much more so, because every time we communicate, we're communicating much more than we think.

 

You cannot be serious. The second is dreadfully patronising. Congratulations on my new business? 

In such an exchange the only relevant things are the facts. Therefore the first statement is far more appropriate.

Why use 4 lines of text when the message can be easily conveyed in 2 lines?

Save your friendly, conversational tone for conversations with friends.

It is obvious you work in the public sector...

 

Edited October 23, 2015 by russycarps

[feral chile]

 

You cannot be serious. The second is dreadfully patronising. Congratulations on my new business? 

In such an exchange the only relevant things are the facts. Therefore the first statement is far more appropriate.

Why use 4 lines of text when the message can be easily conveyed in 2 lines?

Save your friendly, conversational tone for conversations with friends.

It is obvious you work in the public sector...

 

You'd prefer to have someone blaming you for what you haven't done rather than telling you what you need to do?

if this was a conversation, I can tell you from experience, the second is far more constructive, the first is likely to get an argument because of the implication of blame included within it. The second is trying to show how to build rapport (more natural in person) and explaining what needs to be done to progress, no blame attached. 

I

 

[feral chile]

 

You cannot be serious. The second is dreadfully patronising. Congratulations on my new business? 

In such an exchange the only relevant things are the facts. Therefore the first statement is far more appropriate.

Why use 4 lines of text when the message can be easily conveyed in 2 lines?

Save your friendly, conversational tone for conversations with friends.

It is obvious you work in the public sector...

 

The public sector is learning from the private sector. Are you saying you've never noticed the 'welcome' 'congratulations' bits to any corporate correspondence you receive? You'd soon notice their absence, and find the company to be arsey without them.

[russycarps]

You'd prefer to have someone blaming you for what you haven't done rather than telling you what you need to do?

if this was a conversation, I can tell you from experience, the second is far more constructive, the first is likely to get an argument because of the implication of blame included within it. The second is trying to show how to build rapport (more natural in person) and explaining what needs to be done to progress, no blame attached. 

I

 

 

If I make a mistake I am happy for it to be pointed out to me. I dont need mollycoddling. I filled out the form wrong, all I want it to read the text which tells me how to fill it out correctly. I have no interest in anything else you have to say regarding this matter. You are just text on a piece of paper. I do not want to have a conversation with a piece of paper instructing me how to fill out a form.

 

 

[feral chile]

you say that now, but I bet you'd be annoyed if you got a terse letter saying 'you've done this wrong, please return this correctly or we  can't help you' but you'd never have received such a letter, because that's not how things are done when dealing professionally with customers.

[feral chile]

 

If I make a mistake I am happy for it to be pointed out to me. I dont need mollycoddling. I filled out the form wrong, all I want it to read the text which tells me how to fill it out correctly. I have no interest in anything else you have to say regarding this matter. You are just text on a piece of paper. I do not want to have a conversation with a piece of paper instructing me how to fill out a form.

 

 

so when you phone someone, you wouldn't be taken aback if they just said 'yeah, what do you want? and then told you what you hadn't done right?

Social niceties are important, but you only notice them when they're absent.

[t8yman]

Its the kind of thinking that is based out of mothering people and I despise it. One thing that always stuck with me was back in the 90's, my boss at the time's "motto" was "no problem", then some knob jockey offered him "advice" that he should change it, because using the word "problem" may have negative connotations, inferring that somethings might be a problem.

 

flowery language is just faffy bollocks.

[eFestivals]

You'd prefer to have someone blaming you for what you haven't done rather than telling you what you need to do?

it's not "blame".

It's a statement of fact.

[eFestivals]

The public sector is learning from the private sector. Are you saying you've never noticed the 'welcome' 'congratulations' bits to any corporate correspondence you receive? You'd soon notice their absence, and find the company to be arsey without them.

The private sector is trying to extract money from you, and they'll try all sorts of grovelling and bullshit to do so.

A smart person would realise that and would try to not be a sucker to it, rather than embrace it and think the whole world should be like that.

Edited October 23, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

you say that now, but I bet you'd be annoyed if you got a terse letter saying 'you've done this wrong,...

some of us aren't morons, and can handle the truth.

[eFestivals]

Social niceties are important, but you only notice them when they're absent.

Social 'niceties' are only important to those who place great importance by them.

You're welcome to think them more important than the facts if you like.

I'm not buying into pointless bollocks., and you're not going to bully me into it.

[eFestivals]

Its the kind of thinking that is based out of mothering people and I despise it.

This ^

I once had a friend who had to sing a song each morning about the wonders of vacuum cleaners and the company he worked for.

THAT's where this sort of idiocy leads to.

I've never had a job where I've thought the employer was wonderful and was doing me a favour. i'm smart enough to know that it was me that was doing him a favour.

[LJS]

just because one twat decided to make a point of it, doesn't mean everyone who thinks that to be nice to each other is a good thing is a twat too

 

it's not flowery language to show respect

Indeed, It's about respect which is probably why Neil & Russy don't get it.

 

Neil's idea of respect is to add a smiley to the post where he calls you a moron

[t8yman]

you dont have to talk to someone like a child to respect them, in fact if you did try and say to me "congratulations on your new business" etc I would consider that highly disrespectful.

[feral chile]

you dont have to talk to someone like a child to respect them, in fact if you did try and say to me "congratulations on your new business" etc I would consider that highly disrespectful.

in that case, hopefully you'd feed it back and you'd be treated as you'd like. Which is the whole point of diversity.

I'm aware of the 'no problem' one, I can see what they mean, it could be interpreted that there might be a problem. @‌My pleasure' or 'you're welcome' would avoid any potential negativity, I think it would depend on your audience.

And some audiences are, in fact, vulnerable, and you'd tailor your approach to them, which is not patronising, as you don't assume who's vulnerable per se.

we do this all the time anyway. I'm pretty sure anyone who knows what I'm like with technology wouldn't use tech speak with me, and I wouldn't feel patronised. I'd be annoyed if they acted like I was stupid though, because they knew things I didn't.

[feral chile]

it's not "blame".

It's a statement of fact.

You try working in any customer service job and start off with 'you should have'. And see how far you get with the responses.

And then try ' we need to' and see the difference. It's irrelevant what someone's done wrong, it's what they need to do to get it right that's the important thing. And the sub-text that the person at other other end gives a shit.