Are Poems The Right Way To Discuss Issues?

[feral chile]

i had cause to speak to a customer service rep yesterday, over a very serious failure of a service my company relies on. i used very direct (but polite - even though I was absolutely seething) language, and was listened to and dealt with in direct language, and i took them seriously, and came away from the conversation believing they absolutely understood how much they had let me down. any bullshit thrown in on her part would have wound me up no end, and I wouldnt have believed her position.

And that's not positive language why?

 

positive language is just that - how can I help, this is what I've done to resolve this etc.

it's not flowery speech, and if you'd been angry (though not abusive) the adviser should have been trained not to escalate, remain calm and stick to the point.

The positive language bit is how can I help vs what's the problem

thanks for your patience vs sorry to keep you waiting

I'll check vs I don't know etc etc

 

it's precisely about accepting responsibility and being proactive. It's an attitude, not just empty words.

Edited October 23, 2015 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.

I'm not particularly surprised.

[LJS]

but that's not what the example was. That's just going ad absurdium - and to be frank you're doing what you regularly have a go at Neil for doing.

I was mainly having a laugh. But you are of course correct  - especially the bit about Neil doing the Radiccio ad Ablution thing.

 

There is an important difference between written & verbal communication here. We all adapt our verbal communication  - commonly known as conversation  - to suit the person we are communicating with. This, generally isn't conscious  - it's just something we have learnt over time. That doesn't stop us using positive language  - it just alters the way we do it (or don't if we prefer)

 

[feral chile]

I'm not particularly surprised.

I hope that's not your quote of the service you got. I seriously can't think you mean respecting people is a form of control, self control maybe.

[eFestivals]

I hope that's not your quote of the service you got. I seriously can't think you mean respecting people is a form of control, self control maybe.

It's your definition of respect, to which you think everyone should have to comply to.

What aren't you getting about my objection to it?

 

[Celery]

 

If I make a mistake I am happy for it to be pointed out to me. I dont need mollycoddling. I filled out the form wrong, all I want it to read the text which tells me how to fill it out correctly. I have no interest in anything else you have to say regarding this matter. You are just text on a piece of paper. I do not want to have a conversation with a piece of paper instructing me how to fill out a form.

 

 

Is it not possible to point out mistakes without doing it in a shitty manner? 

but only if that 'getting along' is to the rules you dictate, yeah?

I mentioned the "let's all get along" fallacy, and then you go and do it. Priceless.

What rules have I dictated? Another figment of your imagination there.

because your line of "the power of positive language" is all your own definition for your own benefit.

It is an attempt to declare that you decide the rules of discussion, what can be said and what cannot, and how it can be said.

It's the very opposite of intellectualism. It is protectionism of what you have decided is right for everyone, regardless of whether it actually is or not. It is the end of intellectual challenge.

It's no less bullying than bullying.

It's nothing to do with deciding any rules or controlling what is said. It's merely taking into account the receiver of the information and delivering it in a manner that is proactive. Some people need a bollocking/ slagging off to act on something but to go to this approach as a default says a lot about the critic and their own beliefs. You and russycarps come across as bloody miserable in many of your posts and i'm not at all surprised to see you take this negative viewpoint. 

 

[feral chile]

It's your definition of respect, to which you think everyone should have to comply to.

What aren't you getting about my objection to it?

 

you have neglected to provide sufficient information.

you think that's Ok then? You don't think that seems critical? Or implies incompetence?

[eFestivals]

Is it not possible to point out mistakes without doing it in a shitty manner? 

What rules have I dictated? Another figment of your imagination there.
 

it's the 'why can't we all just get along" thing. It bugs me.

Cos it's generally said about wanting people to conform to the standards that the person saying it dictates, and that they couldn't possibly be a part of any friction that exists that has caused them to say that, and therefore any friction is the fault of other people - when the very act of saying that is conflictual in itself, by conflicting with whatever might be going on with a bit of friction.

 

[eFestivals]

 

It's nothing to do with deciding any rules or controlling what is said. It's merely taking into account the receiver of the information and delivering it in a manner that is proactive. Some people need a bollocking/ slagging off to act on something but to go to this approach as a default says a lot about the critic and their own beliefs. You and russycarps come across as bloody miserable in many of your posts and i'm not at all surprised to see you take this negative viewpoint. 

 

So it's not a negative viewpoint to tell me I have a negative viewpoint.

I'd say you're blinded by your own attempts at social hegemony.

 

Edited October 23, 2015 by eFestivals

[feral chile]

it's the 'why can't we all just get along" thing. It bugs me.

Cos it's generally said about wanting people to conform to the standards that the person saying it dictates, and that they couldn't possibly be a part of any friction that exists that has caused them to say that, and therefore any friction is the fault of other people - when the very act of saying that is conflictual in itself, by conflicting with whatever might be going on with a bit of friction.

 

sorry neil, not replying to you, don't know how to get rid of the quote though as can't cancel previous.

scruff, you might be a genial, happy person with no issue with the Passport Office. But if you'd had some sort of ongoing hassle, been waiting a long time, thought they were an officious organisation, or were just grumpy, you might react negatively to this - especially if you thought the Passport Office had been incompetent, you might well think they were on a windup.

[feral chile]

no. It's just a statement of fact. 

If I got that back from, for example, the passport office, then as long as they indicated which bit I'd missed, I'd look at it, call myself a rude name, fill it in and send it back. 

I'm not trying to be awkward or obtuse here it's just how it is. The only addition could maybe be 'if you need any further assistance please ring xxxxxx'

see above, it has a judgemental word in there implying carelessness - 'neglected'...

[feral chile]

I might. But then hif they'd gone too far the other way I also may have thought they were patronising and on a wind up. 

The only one that I feel patronised by is 'you're a valued customer' type ones. I don't really notice the 'congratulations' and 'welcome'[ type greetings, do you?

You get it all the time in the private sector, it's pretty effusive. I haven't really come across it in the public sector.

I have, however, come across a couple of occasions where the decision has implied 'this is your fault' when it wasn't, and been seriously annoyed, enough to challenge it (and won both times, as it happens). It wasn't my fault, because both times it was due to them having new procedures and giving out incorrect advice/incorrectly recording records.

[Spindles]

perhaps spend a few minutes wandering around your place of work, to discover they're nothing like that?

 

Dunno.  I work in a call centre doing customer service and that is the pattern for every call I deal with.  I am polite, pleasant and friendly with that annoying smiley voice, the customers love it and I never have a difficult call.  I work with a bloke who is aggressive, demanding and obstinate, he spends every night slamming his mouse on the desk in frustration as he argues with customers.  I might be putting on a mask, but in doing so it makes life easier for both me and the customer, problems are resolved faster and with less grief to all parties as a result.

[feral chile]

Dunno.  I work in a call centre doing customer service and that is the pattern for every call I deal with.  I am polite, pleasant and friendly with that annoying smiley voice, the customers love it and I never have a difficult call.  I work with a bloke who is aggressive, demanding and obstinate, he spends every night slamming his mouse on the desk in frustration as he argues with customers.  I might be putting on a mask, but in doing so it makes life easier for both me and the customer, problems are resolved faster and with less grief to all parties as a result.

I agree, I had a learning experience early on, I had a customer who was extremely angry and critical, it took me ages to get him to actually listen to what I was saying, 'we' and 'help' are a lot more effective than 'you didn't' 'you should have' when people are in that mental state. it was one of those 'you people' type calls that anyone who deals with customers has probably had at some stage.

by the end, though, we'd got things sorted, and it was then that he admitted that he'd been worried sick about it. it's so important to show a friendly face, as people like him will avoid contact as they're already defensive, and things will get worse.

I've never forgotten that lesson, you can't help people if you imply blame, particularly if they're already in a mess by the time you get them.

Edited October 23, 2015 by feral chile

[Spindles]

Absolutely.  I ended up in a contact centre environment by accident through a job role change some years back and have stuck with it because it suits me.  I've seen alot of people who constantly struggle with dealing with customer issues simply through poor communication, these people are the ones who you always hear raising their voice or receive a lot of complaints that end up escalating.

I wouldn't claim to be well read on the subject, but my experience and skills in the area certainly indicate that a degree of control through language and tone are essential in dealing with people, whether written or verbally.  I mostly deal with americans and it is quite a different experience with how best to deal with them in comparison to british customers.

[feral chile]

Absolutely.  I ended up in a contact centre environment by accident through a job role change some years back and have stuck with it because it suits me.  I've seen alot of people who constantly struggle with dealing with customer issues simply through poor communication, these people are the ones who you always hear raising their voice or receive a lot of complaints that end up escalating.

I wouldn't claim to be well read on the subject, but my experience and skills in the area certainly indicate that a degree of control through language and tone are essential in dealing with people, whether written or verbally.  I mostly deal with americans and it is quite a different experience with how best to deal with them in comparison to british customers.

I'm out of contact centre work now, I enjoyed it too, it suited me, I liked building rapport with customers, and my colleagues were also extremely supportive people.

[Celery]

it's the 'why can't we all just get along" thing. It bugs me.

Cos it's generally said about wanting people to conform to the standards that the person saying it dictates, and that they couldn't possibly be a part of any friction that exists that has caused them to say that, and therefore any friction is the fault of other people - when the very act of saying that is conflictual in itself, by conflicting with whatever might be going on with a bit of friction.

 

So it's not a negative viewpoint to tell me I have a negative viewpoint.

 

I think you've missed my point here. A negative viewpoint is not the issue. The issue is in the manner and delivery of the critique. Nowt wrong with saying something negative

[LondonTom]

see above, it has a judgemental word in there implying carelessness - 'neglected'...

But it was carelessness on the customers part? I don't really need to read more than that to know I've made a mistake. It just needs to be pointed out without a "You stupid c, don't contact us unless you do it right".

Its incredibly frustrating having all the extra fluff around it, had this the other week with Amazon where I had the each customer rep saying "Yes Sir, I completely understand" in every reply when they didn't really. (I've actually ended up £50 up for the moment from their not understanding,  so swings and roundabouts.)

The only one that I feel patronised by is 'you're a valued customer' type ones. I don't really notice the 'congratulations' and 'welcome'[ type greetings, do you?

You get it all the time in the private sector, it's pretty effusive. I haven't really come across it in the public sector.

I have, however, come across a couple of occasions where the decision has implied 'this is your fault' when it wasn't, and been seriously annoyed, enough to challenge it (and won both times, as it happens). It wasn't my fault, because both times it was due to them having new procedures and giving out incorrect advice/incorrectly recording records.

Exactly, its so pointless everyone blanks it out. When I started my last job, for every quick support request I used to right out a long worded reply to say it had been done, by the end a quick "Hi, this is done" was fine and lot more clearer for everyone.

[feral chile]

But it was carelessness on the customers part? I don't really need to read more than that to know I've made a mistake. It just needs to be pointed out without a "You stupid c, don't contact us unless you do it right".

Its incredibly frustrating having all the extra fluff around it, had this the other week with Amazon where I had the each customer rep saying "Yes Sir, I completely understand" in every reply when they didn't really. (I've actually ended up £50 up for the moment from their not understanding,  so swings and roundabouts.)

Exactly, its so pointless everyone blanks it out. When I started my last job, for every quick support request I used to right out a long worded reply to say it had been done, by the end a quick "Hi, this is done" was fine and lot more clearer for everyone.

You don't need to apportion blame though, it risks detracting from the point, escalating matters, and is irrelevant. all you need to state is what needs to be done.

As I've said, I fought 2 overpayments of benefits, not because I hadn't been overpaid, but because of the tone of the letter implying dishonesty on my part, and that was the bit I objected to. As a result, I won cases I never even would have contested if they had just said, 'you weren't entitled to them' instead of 'you failed to tell us' when I had told them. Now, I know that's slightly different, because it's an inaccuracy, but when call demand is so high, anything that generates extra calls, such as people contesting the critical tone of a letter, would be looked at and eradicated.

It's not some fancy policy that someone's invented, it's based on statistical evidence, call analysis, customer feedback etc. So for the people who say they wouldn't be offended, that's fine, but you're not really part of this equation then, because it's not your angry call that needs to be avoided, for the sake of others trying to call.

Edited October 24, 2015 by feral chile

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

As an aside;

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/password-remember-poetry-safe-secure-internet-cyber-security-a6705786.html

 

[feral chile]

As an aside;

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/password-remember-poetry-safe-secure-internet-cyber-security-a6705786.html

 

That's a good idea. I used to have to deal with a 3 syllable random generated string of letters for work, and I never used to forget it, because I made up a story around it. It's the different passwords for everything that's difficult though, remembering which is for what.

[feral chile]

You don't need to apportion blame though, it risks detracting from the point, escalating matters, and is irrelevant. all you need to state is what needs to be done. Apportionuing blame IS extra fluff, when you're a customer wanting something done, you just want them to get on with it, not tell you it's your fault it wasn't done. The only time blame is relevant is in a complaint or compensation case.

As I've said, I fought 2 overpayments of benefits, not because I hadn't been overpaid, but because of the tone of the letter implying dishonesty on my part, and that was the bit I objected to. As a result, I won cases I never even would have contested if they had just said, 'you weren't entitled to them' instead of 'you failed to tell us' when I had told them. Now, I know that's slightly different, because it's an inaccuracy, but when call demand is so high, anything that generates extra calls, such as people contesting the critical tone of a letter, would be looked at and eradicated.

It's not some fancy policy that someone's invented, it's based on statistical evidence, call analysis, customer feedback etc. So for the people who say they wouldn't be offended, that's fine, but you're not really part of this equation then, because it's not your angry call that needs to be avoided, for the sake of others trying to call.

[eFestivals]

There's a lot of fucked up connotations as to what 'flowery' language might consist of going on here. As far as I can tell, being polite and showing some level of respect is thought of as 'flowery'

what you seemed to have missed is that your ideas are based on your own definitions - making it all about what you want.

How does that pan out as being respectful of others, tony?

FFS.

 

[eFestivals]

 

I think you've missed my point here. A negative viewpoint is not the issue. The issue is in the manner and delivery of the critique. Nowt wrong with saying something negative

No, I've not missed your point at all.

If you do something you define it as perfectly reasonable, and you demand the right to declare others unreasonable if you fancy too.

I say put away your self-serving bollocks via which you wish to define and control the limits of any discussion, and show some real respect for others - which respects their right to be different from your cultural imperialism.

 

Edited October 26, 2015 by eFestivals

[mrtourette]

We've been through this many times over the years - Neil is  not a bully, and if you say he is reserves the right in the name of free speech he to insult, degrade and humiliate you. 

Trying to judge Neil's behaviour by your standards is disrespectful and oppressive, and probably something to do with voting Tory. Neil telling you you're a useless c**t and judging you by his standards is something different altogether.