Euro referendum Glasto disenfranchised?

[Respectfatfrog]

there is no proverbial drawbridge when it comes to immigration the French will allow the boarder to become Dover the point is people don't feel happy paying for people when they are not even in the UK they don't feel safe in their own communities (not helped by the media and the fact the close communities started to die years ago no one wishes to admit it) this will worsen if the immigrants cant claim benefits as they could possibly turn to crime to get money to survive   

[A Guy Called Matt]

15 minutes ago, Terence Fletcher said:

I do not believe in a total ban Donald Trump style, what i believe in hence my 'control over our borders' comment is that we can bring in an Australian style points system so we can select who we want here 

it is highly unlikely that the Cologne attackers for example were doctors, dentists,  pharmacists, engineers, scientists etc, but likely were unskilled unemployables, an Australian style system would weed out the types from Cologne most likely

Plus free of EU we would be free to bring in legislation that bans migrants from claiming a penny in benefits for 5 years upon arrival, we can't do that atm

You are Nigel Farage and I donate my £10 to people who care.

[eFestivals]

53 minutes ago, Terence Fletcher said:

We are the strongest growing economy in the G8, one of the strongest and most powerful in the world, i very much doubt that Germany, France etc will stop trading with us, they need our business

approx 50% of the UKs exports go to the EU.

Approx 10% of the EU's exports come to the UK.

Who's more important to who?

 

[504329lt]

Hope voting day is during Glastonbury week.  At least some chance of avoiding it, I'm bored shitless with it already. 

I am probably in the 'don't give a shit' camp; you end up with a set of cnuts with endless rules regardless.  Don't feed their egos 

[eFestivals]

34 minutes ago, Terence Fletcher said:

I do not believe in a total ban Donald Trump style

Donald was going to build a new golf course in Scotland, but he pulled out when he heard Scotland has the Mullah Kintyre.

 

[eFestivals]

36 minutes ago, Terence Fletcher said:

Plus free of EU we would be free to bring in legislation that bans migrants from claiming a penny in benefits for 5 years upon arrival, we can't do that atm

I'll just point out: yes we can.

We just can't discriminate against those we've agreed to not-discriminate against, a different thing entirely.

[___S_o_m_a__]

Put the glue down Terence. 

[krisskross]

As far as I can see, there are 3 main economic power blocs in the world; USA, China, Europe. Anything that weakens Europe will result in a race between China and USA which can only end badly. Anything that disrupts the fragile geo-political situation can only be a bad thing.

I wonder if people will start giving a shit about the European parliament elections after this...if we stay in.. The UK has almost 10% of the seats, thats very far from no power.. Its just we end up having a third of them taken by UKIP who do nothing constructive destroying what influence over policy we could have.

[russycarps]

3 hours ago, 504329lt said:

Hope voting day is during Glastonbury week.  At least some chance of avoiding it, I'm bored shitless with it already. 

I am probably in the 'don't give a shit' camp; you end up with a set of cnuts with endless rules regardless.  Don't feed their egos 

Don't worry, there will always be cleverer people to make the difficult decisions for people like you.

[Yokel Again]

Love big political events - disappointed if this happens over Glastonbury weekend.

(I always thought most Glastonbury goers were traditionally either very liberal or left wing. ha!)

Peace.

[guypjfreak]

i hate politics...so on that reason IM OUT

[arcade fireman]

12 hours ago, Terence Fletcher said:

Will be voting for us to leave 

A further 1-3m muslims are predicted to enter the EU this year, EU say 1m and Nigel Farage says 3m so the truth is probably half way between the 2.

EU can't cope with the existing tsunami of muslims and there could be millions more joining them, frightening prospect

We need to stop these muslims coming in to Britain, many of the ones in the EU are moderate and law abiding and just want a job and safety, but...

A sizeable number have been bought up in extreme forms of islam where women are considered lower than dogs, this has been seen in frightening numbers in Germany where women are frequently raped by muslims and many swimming baths and nightclubs have had to ban muslims altogether because of women being molested, do we want that in the UK? no no no

Extreme islam also brings sharia law, forced marriages, the veil, genital mutilation and other vile practices that are incompatible with our culture

Only taking control of our borders and leaving the EU can we be sure we can keep out the muslim extremists and keep our women safe

 

 

Urgh. Why on earth do you come to Glasto?!

[kingbadger]

11 hours ago, krisskross said:

As far as I can see, there are 3 main economic power blocs in the world; USA, China, Europe. Anything that weakens Europe will result in a race between China and USA which can only end badly. Anything that disrupts the fragile geo-political situation can only be a bad thing.

I wonder if people will start giving a shit about the European parliament elections after this...if we stay in.. The UK has almost 10% of the seats, thats very far from no power.. Its just we end up having a third of them taken by UKIP who do nothing constructive destroying what influence over policy we could have.

This is the only thing I'm scared about - the only people seemingly bothering to vote in the European Parliament elections en masse are the 'Kippers, and there's always the worry those who are inclined to vote 'out' are more likely to up and use their vote. I think a lot of people will not see the referendum as such a big deal in comparison to the Scottish independence election, and accordingly a lot of people who really should be voting in will just let the vote pass them by.

[gizmoman]

11 hours ago, thatcrazypenguin said:

so your back peddling now, now you `dont` want to stop these Muslims coming in (as you put it- you are aware migrant doesnt equal Muslim btw aren't you?)  many of the `migrants` I work with would have been blocked from coming into the uk under one of these point schemes (I do factory work), they work just as hard as me and pay just as much tax as I do......so what exactly are they doing wrong by being here and working for a living? in fact I would go as far as to say many industrys `depend` on migrants as they cant find the workers needed among the uk population. The nhs, the building trade and the manufacturing sector are 3 that come to mind.

What are your plans for british workers if we leave the eu anyway? considering we would no longer be protected by things like the eu created working time directive that basically ensures we`re all entitled to paid holiday, we cant be forced to work stupid amounts of hours without a break etc etc....without that leglisation among others you know working people in this country would be like goldfish in a sharks tank when it comes to what the torys would do to them.......so are you really saying youd fuck over british workers in this way just because you dont like migrants? and to think its people like you who always call people on the left unpatriotic!

 

Your 2 points are at first glance good ones, but the reason migrants come are for the most part economic, they may well pay tax, but the bulk of their excess earnings goes to their country of origin (usually to support family there) and doesn't benefit this country, in the meantime the fact that they are willing to work for lower wages compresses wages in this country which has a knock on effect for everyone.

The EU created workers rights have been totally disregarded by many employers and most employees on lower paid jobs are worse off now (in overall terms of pay and conditions) than they were 40 years ago, when I first started work if you worked Saturday you got paid at time and 1/4,  Sunday was Double Time, now contracts are set with NO fixed time, you work when and if your employer wants you,unsocial hours, bank holidays et al. many breach the holiday rules by adding holiday pay onto your basic pay and then if you want holiday time off you take it without pay. Employers always find ways around enhanced workers rights, that is why zero hours contracts are now rife. The EU has not benefited the average worker at all IMO.

BTW The referendum won't be run until the correct response is predicted to be achieved - we won't be leaving the Euro "family".

Edited February 4, 2016 by gizmoman
comment

[Tyonks]

19 hours ago, eFestivals said:

If you take a moment to actually look at the facts, the democratic structure of the EU is remarkably similar to the UK's democratic structure - far more than any other nation.

It's absolutely fuck all like the USSR, tho it's a favourite thing of kippers to make that comparison - which only shows just how right wing those commentors are.

 

One of the reasons I'm not fully decided is I'm not fully conversant on the facts, but then again, I don't believe any body is. But a centralized unelected government at a basic level, is not democratic. 

[alframsey]

Undecided by currently leaning more towards a vote to leave.

[eFestivals]

4 hours ago, Tyonks said:

One of the reasons I'm not fully decided is I'm not fully conversant on the facts, but then again, I don't believe any body is. But a centralized unelected government at a basic level, is not democratic. 

It has a 'cabinet' of the elected leaders of its member countries, with decisions made by those elected leaders.

How the fuck is that "unelected", how the fuck is that "undemocratic"?

It might not be perfect, but to call it 'unelected' or 'undemocratic' is a lie.

It's a different structure of 'democratic' to other 'democratic' structures (such as straighforwards PR or FPTP), but it's worth remembering that all democratic structures have their obvious flaws, and ultimately it comes down to personal preference for which a person might choose.

What it very definitely isn't is some sort of dictatorial overlord whose orders we have to obey without us having a say. Yes, sometimes we don't get our way (tho the massive majority of the time we do), but that's how it goes in a democracy, sometimes you're outvoted.

[hfuhruhurr]

from: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35470281

[Zoo Music Girl]

How far in advance do you normally have to get a postal vote? I won't know if I'm going to Glastonbury until at least April. Mind you if I don't get a ticket I will probably fuck off elsewhere that week so do need to get one sorted. Voting in obviously. 

[PFests]

Overall I just find being on the left is incompatible with being pro-EU.

Watching the latest episode of the Greek (economic) crisis unfold was a big signal. Syriza elected with a significantly left wing manifesto only to have their mandate completely ignored and one of the most ridiculous austerity packages going imposed at the will of the European commission and Merkel/Schaeuble.

The undemocratic argument I think is largely validated by example above - will of people of specific country is deemed inferior by (unelected - prioritises interests of EU over each member's represented state) Euro Commission and politicians of a single different country in completely different economic circumstances. UK system is similar in structure but the cabinet are, arguably, elected.

Relating it to Scottish Referendum, Scots don't like Westminster-dominant politics and in response they devolve powers. UK doesn't like Brussels-based politics and their response is to further integrate. David Cameron's attempt to renegotiate the weakest 'devolution' package going and subsequent ridiculous fail shows the remain argument of 'no influence if you don't have a seat at the table' is weak.

On the point of 10% EU exports 90% UK imports, when you quote the figures instead of the percentages we have a trade deficit in the region of $175b (2013 figures). I'd be willing to call their bluff on not needing us.

And on the immigration stuff though not my biggest priority, EU migration policy does not benefit the working class. The influx of cheap migrant labour works more for the big bosses and compresses the wages of the unskilled. This is not to discount the Tory employment policies but immigration is definitely a factor.

[michael eavis' beard]

5 hours ago, Tyonks said:

 

One of the reasons I'm not fully decided is I'm not fully conversant on the facts, but then again, I don't believe any body is. But a centralized unelected government at a basic level, is not democratic. 

You confess to not being fully conversant on the facts then make a statement that is - shock horror - not true!

The European Parliament has held elections for its MEPs every 5 years since 1979 and the UK has been involved in every single one.  On what level is that unelected or not democratic?!

Oh and just because you can't be bothered to do a bit of research or watch the news or read a newspaper doesn't mean that others can't!

[eFestivals]

10 minutes ago, PFests said:

Overall I just find being on the left is incompatible with being pro-EU.

Watching the latest episode of the Greek (economic) crisis unfold was a big signal. Syriza elected with a significantly left wing manifesto only to have their mandate completely ignored and one of the most ridiculous austerity packages going imposed at the will of the European commission and Merkel/Schaeuble.

Why do you think it's something left-wing to be able to vote yourself other people's* money?
(* not 'other people within the same society' but the equivalent of the UK voting itself the USA's money)

That's not left wing, that's illiterate at life.

 

[PFests]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Why do you think it's something left-wing to be able to vote yourself other people's* money?
(* not 'other people within the same society' but the equivalent of the UK voting itself the USA's money)

That's not left wing, that's illiterate at life.

 

I believe they were actually elected on an anti-bailout platform, and even held a referendum on the proposed terms of the latest one (60odd% said no).

To what respects that's the national government's fault is hard to say but Greek popular opinion was disregarded more than once.

[eFestivals]

23 minutes ago, PFests said:

when you quote the figures instead of the percentages we have a trade deficit in the region of $175b (2013 figures). I'd be willing to call their bluff on not needing us.

If you want to say how baaaad things are for you as a left-ist but are then willing to take a chance on that scenario working out at not-detrimental, are things really baaaad for you as a left-ist?

It's like the indyref all over again, where comparatively minor tory cuts are evil, but self-inflicting a far far bigger cut of 15% on your spending via the loss of Barnet funding is regarded as something better.

It's not detached thinking that's needed for a better world, it's joined up thinking.

[eFestivals]

19 minutes ago, PFests said:

I believe they were actually elected on an anti-bailout platform, and even held a referendum on the proposed terms of the latest one (60odd% said no).

To what respects that's the national government's fault is hard to say but Greek popular opinion was disregarded more than once.

Greek public opinion was self-conflicted. They voted themselves two incompatible things.

They had a choice of bail-out and big cuts, or no bailout and even bigger cuts.

Very sensibly, their govt eventually decided that the least harmful choice was the better one. This has since been confirmed as the right choice by Greek citizens in a subsequent election.

The EU could have cut them loose via Greece's own actions, and not given them any help at all. The EU were not obliged to give help. The EU coughed up another 80Bn euros to help Greece, a Greece that had very deliberately fraudulently misled the EU over many years by publishing false accounts, and which had taken previous bail-out money on certain conditions but then refused to implement what they'd agreed to.

(and much of the money that was handed to Greece has come from countries with far lower standards of living than Greece has too)

Now, you can blame the individuals in those fraudulent Greek govts, but ultimately the people of a country are responsible for the govts they elect - and no one was complaining about spending that fraudulent cash, they only complained when the fraudulent cash cried up.

edit: meanwhile, Greece has benefited from free gifts of approximately 10Bn Euros a year for the 30+ years it's been an EU member, alongside the bailout cash. It's hardly been shafted.

Edited February 5, 2016 by eFestivals