Euro referendum Glasto disenfranchised?

[russycarps]

52 minutes ago, PFests said:

Overall I just find being on the left is incompatible with being pro-EU.

Watching the latest episode of the Greek (economic) crisis unfold was a big signal. Syriza elected with a significantly left wing manifesto only to have their mandate completely ignored and one of the most ridiculous austerity packages going imposed at the will of the European commission and Merkel/Schaeuble.

The undemocratic argument I think is largely validated by example above - will of people of specific country is deemed inferior by (unelected - prioritises interests of EU over each member's represented state) Euro Commission and politicians of a single different country in completely different economic circumstances. UK system is similar in structure but the cabinet are, arguably, elected.

Relating it to Scottish Referendum, Scots don't like Westminster-dominant politics and in response they devolve powers. UK doesn't like Brussels-based politics and their response is to further integrate. David Cameron's attempt to renegotiate the weakest 'devolution' package going and subsequent ridiculous fail shows the remain argument of 'no influence if you don't have a seat at the table' is weak.

On the point of 10% EU exports 90% UK imports, when you quote the figures instead of the percentages we have a trade deficit in the region of $175b (2013 figures). I'd be willing to call their bluff on not needing us.

And on the immigration stuff though not my biggest priority, EU migration policy does not benefit the working class. The influx of cheap migrant labour works more for the big bosses and compresses the wages of the unskilled. This is not to discount the Tory employment policies but immigration is definitely a factor.

Their manifesto was utter fantasy though.

edit: ok I see this has already been addressed above!

Edited February 5, 2016 by russycarps

[PFests]

20 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

If you want to say how baaaad things are for you as a left-ist but are then willing to take a chance on that scenario working out at not-detrimental, are things really baaaad for you as a left-ist?

It's like the indyref all over again, where comparatively minor tory cuts are evil, but self-inflicting a far far bigger cut of 15% on your spending via the loss of Barnet funding is regarded as something better.

I didn't say things were really baaaad, but I believe the system as it stands is insufficient. The remains say that we must reform from the inside but Dave's renegotiation shows that isn't gonna happen any time soon.

The UK is doing well, but targeted measures over 'common' policies Europe wide could help it do better. Even after referendum we have 2 years to sort out where we stand afterwards, so the short-term shock isn't going to grind us to a halt in the meantime.

The difference between indyref is we're breaking off from political union as a relatively well functioning rounded economy, whereas Scotland's plan to break out of monetary union and run off of oil at $100 was far-fetched, to put it lightly. They had to do threaten it for real to get devomax though.

[PFests]

The Greek reply is a bit long to quote but...

I mean the fraudulent accounting was wrong initially and to that I can't really blame the EU for that, but they shouldn't of joined had that been wider known.

The single currency is in part to blame for the extent of the crisis. Having their own free floating currency could've helped increase their exports and pay the wages of the citizens. The one-size-fits-all currency is indiscriminate to the wide differences in economic conditions between Eurozone countries. This was recognised by contingency plans for a parallel currency but was abandoned, in my opinion, to prevent setting a precedence of the possibility of leaving the Euro.

Basically that the electorate's hands were tied. They chose between cuts or more cuts. I agree that the manifesto was utter fantasy, to quote above, but you can't blame them for voting for something more 'radical'. While not explicitly stated in the manifesto, there was the idea that Syriza could lead Greece out of the Euro as well, allowing them to pursue the policies originally intended.

 

 

[eFestivals]

21 minutes ago, PFests said:

I didn't say things were really baaaad, but I believe the system as it stands is insufficient. The remains say that we must reform from the inside but Dave's renegotiation shows that isn't gonna happen any time soon.

Fat Dave's 'renegotiation' only shows that Fat Dave is shit at negotiating, nothing else.

 

21 minutes ago, PFests said:

The UK is doing well, but targeted measures over 'common' policies Europe wide could help it do better. Even after referendum we have 2 years to sort out where we stand afterwards, so the short-term shock isn't going to grind us to a halt in the meantime.

But the relevant question is: where do we stand afterwards?

No one knows. Just because we have two years doesn't get to mean we stand somewhere better, or even the same.

How many different 'out' campaigns are there now? I think it's seven ... so seven different groups agree the EU is awful, but none of them agree why it's awful or what will be better.

So how the fuck do you think it's likely that there is something better, when even those who say things will be better cannot agree upon how things will be better?

 

21 minutes ago, PFests said:

The difference between indyref is we're breaking off from political union as a relatively well functioning rounded economy, whereas Scotland's plan to break out of monetary union and run off of oil at $100 was far-fetched, to put it lightly. They had to do threaten it for real to get devomax though.

that worked well, then. PMSL

(they're currently doing everything they can to avoid the responsibility that comes with new powers ... they want their own tax raising powers, but they don't want the risk that comes with raising your own taxes. All mouth and no trousers, just as some always knew they were. )

[eFestivals]

28 minutes ago, PFests said:

The Greek reply is a bit long to quote but...

I mean the fraudulent accounting was wrong initially and to that I can't really blame the EU for that, but they shouldn't of joined had that been wider known.

The single currency is in part to blame for the extent of the crisis.

That may or may not be true.

But every member country knows the rules of that currency group, and every other country has managed to operate within those rules and there's absolutely no reason why Greece couldn't do that too.

Greece made a concious decision to ignore the rules. No one punched Greece in the face apart from Greece itself.

The consequences of Greece's own doings have have come back on Greece. None of it had to happen, despite any flaws that might exist within the Euro structure. Greece MADE it happen.

 

Quote

Having their own free floating currency could've helped increase their exports and pay the wages of the citizens.

you've missed out Greece having a substantially lower standard of living, which would be an unavoidable consequence of doing that.

You posted earlier about how Greece voted. Did you miss the bit where they made clear they didn't want that substantially lower standard of living, and much prefer the better standards that come with being an EU and Euro member?

 

Quote

The one-size-fits-all currency is indiscriminate to the wide differences in economic conditions between Eurozone countries.

It is, tho of course it's designed (perhaps badly, but that's another thing) to equalise the economic conditions between Eurozone countries, and to a large extent it's succeeding with that tho it's going to take time to roll out its effects.

 

Quote

This was recognised by contingency plans for a parallel currency but was abandoned, in my opinion, to prevent setting a precedence of the possibility of leaving the Euro.

It was only Greece that abandoned those plans, so it cannot be to have prevented setting a precident over the possibility of leaving.

Such a thing could have only been wanted by the EU side, not Greece.

 

Quote

Basically that the electorate's hands were tied. They chose between cuts or more cuts.

The Greek electorate's hands were only being tied by the choices available to Greece. No one forced Greece to do anything.

Greece not liking those choices is fuck all to do with things. I don't much like the fact I can't afford to go on the piss tonight, but that's the fault of the money in my own pocket, not the money that might be in someone else's.

 

Quote

I agree that the manifesto was utter fantasy, to quote above, but you can't blame them for voting for something more 'radical'.

Yes I can.

If people vote stupid, it's the fault of those people and no one else.

If the UK goes badly tits up, the UK takes responsibility for its own choices. That's how it works.

 

Quote

While not explicitly stated in the manifesto, there was the idea that Syriza could lead Greece out of the Euro as well, allowing them to pursue the policies originally intended.

But they couldn't have.

You cannot maintain standards of living without the cash to do so.

Printing your own cash (or more of your own cash) doesn't make you richer.

Edited February 5, 2016 by eFestivals

[siweltrebor]

This so called negotiation has been a joke so far, wanting things that would never be accepted, coming back saying they got a good offer is equally a joke as Europe didn't want to look like it was folding to the UK so barely gave an inch.

It's all just spin, but Cameron deep down surely hoped for more than what he's been offered, it's severly weakened his arguement to stay in the EU.

I'm on the camp to stay in the EU, I think it would be very dangerous for a country like us that expects certain things to then isolate ourselves and expect things to be made easy for us to be as good as if not better than before. There would be resistance to allowing Britain to be powerful without the protection of the EU. It would make us quite vulnerable if anything.

[PFests]

Wanting to try and bring it back into the context of the UK...

Having a free floating currency would've given them similar standard of living to other EU members. An objective of the EU is to bring in a standard of health/safety, quality of products, efficiency etc through their regulation. The Euro itself does less to that effect, but aids the borderless ideal so to speak. Similarly, the regulation does apply to the UK but without the monetary union. While this has been useful to the UK recovery it's not really the referendum point so will disregard, but I did bring that up myself so no blames.

Not to be part of the 'elf n safety' guys but there are elements of this red tape that can be detrimental to a country of ~90%+ small businesses. 

On that last point, I can't remember the details of how the process was supposed but initially issuing IOUs to public sector workers and gradually increasing the flow was not the same as complete abandonment of the Euro and printing. I believe they weren't getting paid in Euros at the time anyway. I'm open to reminders on how it actually went down but as you quite rightly said in reality they had to stay because of the overall situation. The UK is in a wildly different one economically. The negative shock for them was vastly different to the one we'd have.

As for voting changes, in a country already hit hard with the crisis and public spending cuts I can understand why the everyday man would vote for a party promising what it did. To relate it back to UK context, can you blame voters for voting SNP/Greens/UKIP out of disenfranchisement of the establishment?

[GlastoSimon]

Anyone who thought Cameron wasn't going to get a shite deal and spin it clearly doesn't know him well enough. 

Unfortunately I can see an 'out' vote winning. Oldies, kippers, Tories, a large proportion will want out and they vote in droves. Cameron far from convincing at the moment either. 

The last minute stuff with Indy ref just won't work this time around as people will see it for what it is.

[GlastoSimon]

Yesterday's poll is pretty frightening too, but unsurprising.

[PFests]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/05/eu-no-longer-serves-people-europe-diem25

Interestingly enough, Varoufakis article published today very relevant.

[PFests]

18 minutes ago, GlastoSimon said:

Anyone who thought Cameron wasn't going to get a shite deal and spin it clearly doesn't know him well enough. 

It was obvious this was going to happen. Even if Cameron's the toughest negotiator going (furthest thing from), how could he possibly get treaty change or any substantial reform if there's no downside to the EU saying no. When he says 'won't rule anything out' they see straight through him and know that regardless of what any concessions, or lack thereof, he'll campaign for in.

No incentive to reform unless a credible threat to leave.

[eFestivals]

34 minutes ago, PFests said:

Not to be part of the 'elf n safety' guys but there are elements of this red tape that can be detrimental to a country of ~90%+ small businesses. 

You might have noticed, I run a small business. I'm not drowning in red tape.

The only red tape I see is the same red tape that existed before the EU even existed.

 

34 minutes ago, PFests said:

To relate it back to UK context, can you blame voters for voting SNP/Greens/UKIP out of disenfranchisement of the establishment?

It depends how attached to the facts they might be. Voting stupid is only ever that.

[alframsey]

Being a socialist to the core I am normally an internationalist however, where te EU is concerned I cannot vote to stay inside a union which is nothing more than a while for aggressive neoliberal, free market ideology and an u democratic one at that.

[eFestivals]

24 minutes ago, PFests said:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/05/eu-no-longer-serves-people-europe-diem25

Interestingly enough, Varoufakis article published today very relevant.

yeah, the view of the man who made the Greece situation far worse than it would otherwise have been should be listened to.

Every jot of what he says first works from the principle that he's a right to demand the money from others, without those others having a right to refuse.

Outside of that I'm quite sympathetic to what he says, but it's unrealistic to expect others to fund your dreams.

The Greek economy was over-inflated by fraudulent money. It's not 'a slump' that's happening in Greece, it's a return to a normal not-over-inflated Greek economy.

[PFests]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

You might have noticed, I run a small business. I'm not drowning in red tape.

The only red tape I see is the same red tape that existed before the EU even existed.

Well aware.

Music news/info site = small business.

Small businesses =/= music news/info sites.

My point, and it's the wider one that I try to relate back to, is the 'common' policies ie fishing/agriculture that would be better off under, or at least closer to, the control of the local fishers/farmers in the UK, rather than Brussels technocrats. It's the principle that, in my opinion, the power should be in the hands of the people.

[Winslow Leach]

5 minutes ago, alframsey said:

Being a socialist to the core I am normally an internationalist however, where te EU is concerned I cannot vote to stay inside a union which is nothing more than a while for aggressive neoliberal, free market ideology and an u democratic one at that.

State of this comment.

But as long as you've made your glorious stand against neoliberalism, I suppose that's fine. That'll show them.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, PFests said:

Well aware.

Music news/info site = small business.

Small businesses =/= music news/info sites.

My point, and it's the wider one that I try to relate back to, is the 'common' policies ie fishing/agriculture that would be better off under, or at least closer to, the control of the local fishers/farmers in the UK, rather than Brussels technocrats. It's the principle that, in my opinion, the power should be in the hands of the people.

So as an out-er, if 'the people' decide they prefer to leave 'the power' (over certain things) in Brussels, you'll happily accept the result as being exactly what you've said there? 'the power' being exercised by 'the people'.

Blimey, if so you'll be the first out-er I've met who will promise to shut up if 'out' lose.

[PFests]

20 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

yeah, the view of the man who made the Greece situation far worse than it would otherwise have been should be listened to.

Every jot of what he says first works from the principle that he's a right to demand the money from others, without those others having a right to refuse.

Outside of that I'm quite sympathetic to what he says, but it's unrealistic to expect others to fund your dreams.

The Greek economy was over-inflated by fraudulent money. It's not 'a slump' that's happening in Greece, it's a return to a normal not-over-inflated Greek economy.

Was sharing to highlight the coincidence more than trying to prove anything, just saying.

Agree that the book-cooking ultimately lead to it's demise. It's the extent to which being part of the European collective has caused pain in between we'll agree to disagree.

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

So as an out-er, if 'the people' decide they prefer to leave 'the power' (over certain things) in Brussels, you'll happily accept the result as being exactly what you've said there? 'the power' being exercised by 'the people'.

Blimey, if so you'll be the first out-er I've met who will promise to shut up if 'out' lose.

Absolutely. I'm not like the Scots who will want continual referenda until they get the result they want. I'd certainly welcome any changes should they be proposed afterwards.No one likes losing but ultimately if I lose I'll take it gracefully. Told here explicitly so I can be held to it..! A feeling of having some influence is my primary objective.

The discussion isn't as much to denounce anyone else's views but as to consolidate my own. I don't underestimate the importance of such a decision so want to make sure I'm clear myself. Discussions elsewhere can get a little hostile.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, PFests said:

Agree that the book-cooking ultimately lead to it's demise. It's the extent to which being part of the European collective has caused pain in between we'll agree to disagree.

the fraud started before the euro started - it was the only way they could meet the euro entry criteria in the first place.

So it's just about impossible to pin any blame on the lack of fiscal transfers which were never part of the euro deal anyway. 

5 minutes ago, PFests said:

Absolutely. I'm not like the Scots who will want continual referenda until they get the result they want. I'd certainly welcome any changes should they be proposed afterwards.No one likes losing but ultimately if I lose I'll take it gracefully. Told here explicitly so I can be held to it..! A feeling of having some influence is my primary objective.

That's genuinely good to hear.

I'm sure you're aware that there's plenty of kipper types who say "we demand self determination" but then won't accept the result of 'the people' determening their future if they don't get their winning vote.

 

[jeffie]

1 hour ago, PFests said:

Well aware.

Music news/info site = small business.

Small businesses =/= music news/info sites.

My point, and it's the wider one that I try to relate back to, is the 'common' policies ie fishing/agriculture that would be better off under, or at least closer to, the control of the local fishers/farmers in the UK, rather than Brussels technocrats. It's the principle that, in my opinion, the power should be in the hands of the people.

This is usually the result though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

[504329lt]

23 hours ago, russycarps said:

Don't worry, there will always be cleverer people to make the difficult decisions for people like you.

Thanks for the offer

[PFests]

1 hour ago, jeffie said:

This is usually the result though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

Interesting read and makes sense. There's a happy medium though between individuals acting purely in self-interest and untailored laws from the European Commission. They are the ones who set all the quotas etc, correct if wrong? To disregard the role of government to protect these resources is absurd, but to disregard opinion of those who know the local industry is equally so.

Of those in the remain camp, if the option of reform was open, in what respects, if any, would you change it from current? 

[eFestivals]

12 minutes ago, PFests said:

Interesting read and makes sense. There's a happy medium though between individuals acting purely in self-interest and untailored laws from the European Commission. They are the ones who set all the quotas etc, correct if wrong? To disregard the role of government to protect these resources is absurd, but to disregard opinion of those who know the local industry is equally so.

Hmmmm.... if the EU hadn't have got involved years ago, those local opinions would have already fished the place to extinction, so there's certainly not the space to claim the higher moral ground or better knowledge from that side. And if the EU have also made cock-ups then that's much the same. All that really proves is that the best intentioned can make cock-ups.

The very nature of collaboration means that sometimes we shouldn't get our own way, because our own way isn't always best. I'd say it's around that particular factor that the hackles rise in most of the out-ers.

[Whittick]

On 4 February 2016 at 6:51 AM, thatcrazypenguin said:

My biggest worry in leaving the eu would be the tories getting even more and more unchecked power over us, at the moment they have to abide by eu human rights laws. also there are laws such as the working time directive etc that ensure us fair treatment in employment....if all that goes away and the government can treat us however they like without anyone keeping tabs on them? That scares me. If we leave the eu expect the amount of `rights` you enjoy to take a serious downslide!

Losing the working time directive would be the worst, at the moment It gives EU workers the right to a minimum number of holidays each year, rest breaks, and rest of at least 11 hours in any 24 hours; restricts excessive night work; a day off after a week's work; and provides for a right to work no more than 48 hours per week

Now the tories would love to see the back of that financed as they are by many company directors and executives.....why do you think so many of them are anti eu again? heres a tip its NOTHING to do with immigration everything to do with them salivating over taking yet more of our rights from us!.....

If this was the case why is David Cameron so keen for us to stay in the EU? 

[Whittick]

7 hours ago, michael eavis' beard said:

You confess to not being fully conversant on the facts then make a statement that is - shock horror - not true!

The European Parliament has held elections for its MEPs every 5 years since 1979 and the UK has been involved in every single one.  On what level is that unelected or not democratic?!

Oh and just because you can't be bothered to do a bit of research or watch the news or read a newspaper doesn't mean that others can't!

It's just a shame the EU Parliament is the weakest of the three branches of EU legislation, behind the unelected council and commission.