Euro referendum Glasto disenfranchised?

[eFestivals]

17 hours ago, arcade fireman said:

There's enough odious people on either side. Plenty of Tories, Jeremy Hunt, Cameron, Theresa May etc are in. But on the other side you have Farage, IDS, Gove, George Galloway, probably Boris. 

while there's odious people on both sides, one of them is far more odious than the other. Only one side has Redwood, Gove and IDS - the most odious of odious tories.

[eFestivals]

17 hours ago, rawaudioinput said:

The majority of the Labour party were against the EU, dating back from its inception until the early 90's

I don't think that's true. It's certainly not how I remember things

[eFestivals]

7 hours ago, LondonTom said:

Londoners have known it for about 8 years now sadly.

they knew it so much that after 4 years they returned him to office....?

London seems to be trying to rival some others on the myth-inventing front at the moment.

 

[eastynh]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

while there's odious people on both sides, one of them is far more odious than the other. Only one side has Redwood, Gove and IDS - the most odious of odious tories.

I have always been a part of the in camp. Pardon the language but I have always been of the belief that life is better inside the tent pissing out, rather that being stood outside the tent in the rain, pissing up it.

The fact the idiots you mention are in the out camp only reaffirms my decision exponentially.

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, eastynh said:

I have always been a part of the in camp. Pardon the language but I have always been of the belief that life is better inside the tent pissing out, rather that being stood outside the tent in the rain, pissing up it.

The fact the idiots you mention are in the out camp only reaffirms my decision exponentially.

... AND I didn't even mention Farage.

[eastynh]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

... AND I didn't even mention Farage.

I still can not believe people actually take that man seriously. 

Even if you knew nothing about the pro's and con's regarding the EU, surely sensible people realise that just taking the opposite view to Farage would be the right thing to do.

I am off to bed now mate after finishing work. Need to get that buffoon out of my head as he will give me nightmares.

[PFests]

Anyone know the deadline for applications for postal vote/proxy? Apologies for laziness to google but I'm sure the info will be useful for others in this thread.

I agree there are some shady politicians on the leave campaign, but the reasons behind there decisions have pleasantly surprised me. Both BoJo and Gove's statements made for interesting reading and I'd recommend, particularly to undecideds, to have a butcher's. What's more interesting to me are the reasons labour MPs who are historically eurosceptics are voting In, Corbyn/McDonnell for example. I know there's an element of party management and keeping a united front, but they typically only argue the 'too much risk' element, when their feelings are well known to reach far deeper.

On 'controversial' politicians, Gerry Adams has just come out as a Remainer. No opinions given just thought it was interesting.

[UEF]

1 minute ago, PFests said:

Anyone know the deadline for applications for postal vote/proxy? Apologies for laziness to google but I'm sure the info will be useful for others in this thread.

 

11 days before the vote is the deadline I think, but you don't want to be cutting this fine especially with glasto travel to worry about.

[PFests]

Just now, UEF said:

11 days before the vote is the deadline I think, but you don't want to be cutting this fine especially with glasto travel to worry about.

No tickets as things stand unfortunately. Just wanted to know whether I needed to apply pre/post resale.

Thanks a million.

[**claire**]

13 minutes ago, PFests said:

Anyone know the deadline for applications for postal vote/proxy? Apologies for laziness to google but I'm sure the info will be useful for others in this thread.

I agree there are some shady politicians on the leave campaign, but the reasons behind there decisions have pleasantly surprised me. Both BoJo and Gove's statements made for interesting reading and I'd recommend, particularly to undecideds, to have a butcher's. What's more interesting to me are the reasons labour MPs who are historically eurosceptics are voting In, Corbyn/McDonnell for example. I know there's an element of party management and keeping a united front, but they typically only argue the 'too much risk' element, when their feelings are well known to reach far deeper.

On 'controversial' politicians, Gerry Adams has just come out as a Remainer. No opinions given just thought it was interesting.

You can download the form here - I've just done mine!

[A Guy Called Matt]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

... AND I didn't even mention Farage.

Do you have to bring the tone of this place down by mentioning him.

[A Guy Called Matt]

11 minutes ago, **claire** said:

You can download the form here - I've just done mine!

I did mine on Saturday. So did the wife.

[Hotchilidog]

I shall definitely be applying for my postal vote, downloaded the form today.

[rawaudioinput]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

I don't think that's true. It's certainly not how I remember things

Didn't Michael Foot argue to leave the European Common Market in his manifesto?

[UEF]

The old Labour left has always been quite anti-EU. Dennis Skinner's an outer, Jeremy Corbyn was up until now.

[eFestivals]

52 minutes ago, rawaudioinput said:

Didn't Michael Foot argue to leave the European Common Market in his manifesto?

He did, I think.

But the anti EU element of Labour was such a contentious issue, it helped cause Labour to split with the creation of the SDP (Roy Jenkins who was leader had just come back from a stint as a major Brussels bigwig).

And in Labour's deputy leadership election, the anti EU sentiment of Benn lost out to the more rounded and practical Healey.

And following Foot's defeat, all that sort of thinking was out of the door, for a far more moderate line from Kinnock.

The Labour party were certainly very conflicted over the EU - much as the tories are now - but I'd say it was wrong to say "The majority of the Labour party were against the EU, dating back from its inception until the early 90's" (which matey did), firstly because it was never a clear majority (and what happened after suggests it was a minority), and it was pretty much put to bed by '87.

And it wasn't against since its inception. The Labour govt campaigned to stay in at the last referendum (tho allowed dissent, as Cameron is doing), and the unions were solidly in favour of staying in - their line was "to stay in jobs we've got to stay in Europe".

I'm not old enough to remember, but I also have a feeling that Wilson made moves to take us in in his first term.

[DeanoL]

There's also a fundamental difference between finding the EU problematic, and even damaging to UK interests, and wanting out of it.

On a pros/cons level neither side has me entirely convinced. But at a very basic level, I can't vote for isolationism in an increasingly smaller world. It just seems entirely backwards to me.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, DeanoL said:

There's also a fundamental difference between finding the EU problematic, and even damaging to UK interests, and wanting out of it.

Absolutely true.

And don't forget, on much the same basis, many of us will often think the UK govt is damaging to UK interests, too.

We get the best governance from the best ideas, which is nothing to do with anything about where the decisions are taken or the nationality of the person taking them.

[PFests]

8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

And in Labour's deputy leadership election, the anti EU sentiment of Benn lost out to the more rounded and practical Healey.

I'm too young to know the ins and outs of labour politics of that time, so looking for clarification of the influence of Benn. As I understand it he was a big figure at Glastonbury and regularly invited to speak. Given his strong convictions on Europe, would his influence reach as far as shaping the voting direction of the more regular Glastonbury people, or was his reputation more down to other issues?

[dooke10]

I am a long time Labour member and voter and always been very much an 'inner' however...

Cameron has screwed this up beyond anything you could imagine. He entered negotiations for a "better deal" whilst making it overly clear he would be campaigning to stay in, thus they gave him very little and what he got will be pulled after we vote in (very much like how the Scots have received nothing from what what promised in there referendum). The EU expects the country to go with the elected leader so is commonplace.

Now every one in the EU knows that if we vote in we will have lost that bit of authority/higher ground that let us push the envelope with vetos and lower payments in etc.

I'll more than likely vote to stay in but the UK is now in a disgraceful position just because Cameron was scarred of losing votes to UKIP and his own backbenchers when this negotiation should have done prior to any referendum commitment.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, PFests said:

I'm too young to know the ins and outs of labour politics of that time, so looking for clarification of the influence of Benn. As I understand it he was a big figure at Glastonbury and regularly invited to speak. Given his strong convictions on Europe, would his influence reach as far as shaping the voting direction of the more regular Glastonbury people, or was his reputation more down to other issues?

I read a lot of public comments on newspaper sites, and there's plenty of people mentioning that Benn was always against the EU.

How far those might extend into the Glasto crowd I'm less certain, as the days of Benn making a big noise with that in particular was the mid-70s.

I think this is an issue where most people long ago made up their minds, and those who might mention Benn are looking for things to justify the opinion they'd formed by other means.

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, dooke10 said:

(very much like how the Scots have received nothing from what what promised in there referendum)

Things take time, and currently things are only 2 weeks behind schedule on that front. To suggest nothing is happening is false.

There can be arguments made about whether promises of powers have been lived up to, but mostly that's about the interpretations put onto the words of some people rather than anything ever explicitly promised.

 

[DeanoL]

5 minutes ago, dooke10 said:

Now every one in the EU knows that if we vote in we will have lost that bit of authority/higher ground that let us push the envelope with vetos and lower payments in etc.

Why should we have that though anyway? I mean, what makes us so special? This 'disgraceful' position we're in is just the same as everyone else. Which is kinda the point of the EU in the first place.

That's the sad thing about this whole referendum. Whether we vote in or out, each side is campaigning on doing what's "best for the UK". The very positioning of the argument in that fashion belies the fact that we're not truly in it anyway. If we were, we'd be asking what's "best for the EU".

[dooke10]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

There can be arguments made about whether promises of powers have been lived up to, but mostly that's about the interpretations put onto the words of some people rather than anything ever explicitly promised.

 

I suppose that's kind of the point. The 'deal' from the EU is just as wooly and unclear, which it didn't need to be if given time and not under zero threat from Cameron.

I'm for staying in as stated, but the statements from BoJo and Gove do not look as far from the truth as they once would have done.

[PFests]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I read a lot of public comments on newspaper sites, and there's plenty of people mentioning that Benn was always against the EU.

How far those might extend into the Glasto crowd I'm less certain, as the days of Benn making a big noise with that in particular was the mid-70s.

I think this is an issue where most people long ago made up their minds, and those who might mention Benn are looking for things to justify the opinion they'd formed by other means.

Reason I ask is that the current leave side is so conservative-heavy so I know how you mean in your last point about already decided for other means. But I know that historically there is a significant labour eurosceptic core... The likes of Kate Hoey still remain outspoken in their EU opposition, didn't know to what end Bennites still stay true to the eurosceptic line.

So could you shed more light on what made Benn so popular at Glastonbury? What were his speeches typically focus on? Disappointed to have not got the chance to see one, seemed a genuine politician.

Out of interest as well, what sort of manifesto did ME run on back in 97? To what brand of labour did he most adhere to and did he have a definitive position on Europe at that time? Googled but didn't seem to come up with too much.