Are we In or Out?

[Thevorpalblade]

Since us 'innies' are not hypocrites, I'm sure that you'll all agree that we should join the Euro.

After all, if we stay in we'll still be financially contributing regardless of our adoption, or not, of the Euro.

I'm no hypocrite. Are you?

Vote IN to remain and join the Euro.

[russycarps]

5 minutes ago, Jennylucky said:

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about June 23rd

I was thinking exactly the same thing as I read your post.

 

[jeffie]

I so wish I had written this.

(c) Nick Carter-Lando

 

Immigration has been in the news a lot lately, especially with the EU referendum coming up.

So let's use the tools and data of political science to understand t...he topic better.

Last year, 270,000 EU citizens immigrated to the UK, and 85,000 returned to the EU. So EU net migration was around 185,000 (1). Additionally, a similar number came from outside the EU, so 330,000 in total.

That was the highest ever level of EU migration – going all the way back to when we joined the EEC in 1975. Indeed during the 1980s the trend was the other way – British workers moved overseas, particularly to Germany, as their economy was doing better than ours at that time. You might remember the TV show ‘Auf Wiedersehen Pet’. Currently our economy is doing better than many European ones so more people are coming than going. But there's no reason to think that will always be the case.

The Leave campaign claim that EU migration is putting unsustainable pressure on our public services, worsening the housing crisis, putting pressure on the NHS, on schools and on our roads. Their latest TV broadcast for instance shows a sick older lady receiving NHS treatment much faster in an imaginary hospital if we leave the EU. Are they right?

Imagine that we left the EU and banned EU immigration completely. Nobody else allowed – no footballers, no entertainers, no chefs, no businessmen, no nurses, no cleaners, nobody. And we kept that door shut for ten years. And for comparison let’s say that we stayed in the EU and immigration continues at this year’s record level (the highest ever) for the next ten years. How would that impact our population and our public services?

In terms of population, we’d end up with 1.85m fewer people living in our country after the 10 years. That sounds like a lot of people, which it is. But we’re a big country – 64.6m in total at the moment (2). So even under these very extreme assumptions the difference is only 2.8%. Less than 1 in 35.

Would you notice the difference if there were 34 instead of 35 people in your doctors’ waiting room? If there were 34 instead of 35 cars ahead of you in the traffic jam? Would your child’s education suffer in a class of 34 instead of 35? I doubt it.

And don’t forget that we’re making crazily unrealistic assumptions about how much we could reduce immigration if we left the EU. Because even the most ardent Leave campaigners don’t say that we should stop immigration altogether. They usually talk of using a points system to reach the government’s net target of 100,000 per year. So the difference in population after 10 years wouldn’t be anything like as much as 1 in 35.

Let’s say we could hit the net target of 100,000 – half from the EU and half from non-EU countries for the sake of argument. In that case, the difference in population after 10 years would be 1.35m or 1 in 49.

And don’t forget that we’re also making another very aggressive assumption – that migration will continue at the same level as last year, our highest ever. It would be more realistic to take the average of the last five years migration (3). If we do that, then the difference in our population after ten years would be only 790,000 or 1 in 82.

1 in 82.

I can’t tell the difference between a crowd of 81 and 82 people (even when they were my own wedding guests!). Can you?

So here’s the thing: however you feel about EU immigration, even under extreme assumptions the impact on our overall population just isn’t very large.

Now at this point some of you might be thinking – “This can't be right - step outside and look with your own eyes! Britain is full of foreigners! The place I grew up is like another country! How can you claim that EU immigration is not significant?”.

I live in inner London so I can sense where you might be coming from. A few things to bear in mind:

1) The overwhelming majority of immigration to the UK over the last 40 years has been from outside the EU (3). However you feel about that, it has nothing to do with our EU membership;

2) Whether you like it or not, Britain has been a multicultural country for several generations at least. You can’t tell whether somebody is an immigrant just by looking at them (sorry if this is an obvious point). You might hazard a guess at their ethnicity or race but that’s a very different thing;

3) Historically, immigrants have clustered in particular areas of the country, so your neighbourhood may not be representative of the country at large;

4) British people from all backgrounds have become much more cosmopolitan in their tastes over the last 40 years. We drink in pubs much less, but enjoy wine at home or go to restaurants and cafes a lot more. Instead of just eating British food, we enjoy flavours from all over the world. So the retail and commercial landscape of our country has changed - to reflect our changing tastes, not just because of new arrivals.

“But wait! What when Turkey, Montenegro and Albania join the EU? We’ll be swamped!”

No we won’t.

Mainly because Turkey and Albania are nowhere near being eligible to join the EU, and Montenegro is tiny. Also don't forget there are 27 other countries in the EU to choose from if residents of those countries did fancy a change of scene.

And even if in the distant future many other countries did join and we did find ourselves swamped, Britain could leave. We’re free to leave the EU whenever we want. But if we leave and then want to rejoin, we’d need the consent of all 27 other member states. Better to stay and keep our options open than leave in fear of something that is very unlikely to happen.

And so far we’ve also not factored in the contribution that immigrants make to our country, and specifically our public finances. EU migrants contribute more in taxes than they use in public services, as they are much more likely to be of working age than the general population (4). So if we used that extra tax revenue to hire more doctors, build more schools, invest in transport and so on, we’d actually have better public services than we would without any EU immigration.

It takes time to hire and train teachers and doctors, build schools and roads, and so forth. So it’s true that a sudden influx of people into an area can put short-term pressure on services. But the fundamental reason for the issues we identified at the start – NHS pressure, oversubscribed schools, congested roads, the housing crisis – is not EU immigration.

We are now six years into a government austerity programme to attempt to balance the books. So it’s not surprising that our public services are feeling the pinch.

An ageing population and new advances in medicine put particular strain on the NHS.

For the last thirty years, we have failed by a wide margin to build enough houses in the UK. Interest rates have been at an ‘emergency’ rate of 0.5% for the last seven years. That is why house prices are so high.

And this story of decades of underinvestment is repeated for our roads and railways too.

All of these issues are home-grown. And all of those policy areas are entirely within the control of our government in Westminster. They have nothing to do with the EU and are not the fault of EU migrants.

Finally, there’s been plenty of academic research into this issue, including a summary paper just published by the London School of Economics (5).

The research shows, contrary to many tabloid headlines, that

1) Immigrants do not take a disproportionate share of jobs created by our economy;
2) There is no evidence of an overall negative impact of immigration on wages;
3) There is no evidence that EU migrants affect the labour market performance of native-born workers (i.e. make it harder for native-born workers to get promoted, get a pay rise, etc)

So it is clear from examining the evidence that fears of immigration have been blown out of all proportion by the Eurosceptic press and the Leave campaign.

But what about all that money we send the EU? Couldn't we use that to improve public services?

Yes, but it wouldn't go very far, and it would be outweighed by the economic damage from leaving.

Our net contribution to the EU was £8.5bn last year (6) which works out at 36 pence per person per day. That is a drop in the ocean compared to our annual NHS budget of £116.4bn (7).

And if you’re trying to work out the impact of leaving the EU on our public services, you can’t just look at our net contribution. You also need to consider the effect that leaving would have on the size of our economy, and hence the tax revenue the government can generate.

Seven highly respected independent economic organisations have tried to work this out (8). And all seven of them have reached the same conclusion: that the economic damage caused by Brexit would more than offset the saving from our EU contribution.

The best estimate suggests that the government would have between £20bn and £40bn less to spend on public services than if we remained in the EU (9). So our public services wouldn't be better if we left the EU - they would be much worse.

So if we left the EU to ‘take control of immigration’, and then reduced it as discussed above, we’d still have all the same problems we have today – the housing crisis, an overstretched NHS, oversubscribed schools, heavy traffic, etc.

But we’d also have two even more serious problems to add to the list: a recession and the unknown consequences of destabilising the very institution which has secured peace in Europe for the last 70 years.

People are sceptical of economists’ forecasts. But you don’t even need to estimate many of the economic problems that will arise from Brexit – you can see them already in the currency markets.

The pound suffered its biggest one day fall in seven years when Boris and other MPs joined the leave campaign (10). You can watch the impact of movements in the referendum opinion polls in the EUR/GBP exchange rate. A major bank recently warned that Brexit could wipe 20% off the value of the pound through devaluation (11).

Devaluation sounds like a dry and abstract concept. So let me explain what that means:

20% of your life savings wiped out overnight.

The numbers in your bank account will be the same, but what you can buy with it will be 20% less, since most things we buy these days come from overseas.

Only the other day the Financial Times reported that hedge funds are planning to run their own private exit polls on referendum day to speculate on the currency markets ahead of the official result (12).
Just as during the ERM crisis of 1992, the vultures are circling, waiting to feast on our self-inflicted wounds.

And here’s another very clear threat: to our jobs. Only last Friday, Jamie Dimon, CEO of JP Morgan, warned his staff in Bournemouth that one, two or even four thousand of them would be made redundant if we leave the EU (13). Imagine how his staff are feeling today. And as a manager, let me tell you: that’s not the kind of thing you tell your employees unless you’re deadly serious.

Even leading Leave campaigner Michael Gove admitted just a few days ago that jobs are at risk if we leave the EU (14). Multimillionaire UKIP donor Arron Banks described this economic damage as ‘a price worth paying’ (15).

Arron Banks, Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage might be rich enough to gamble their jobs on Brexit - but are you?

It is quite possible that some of your friends and family will lose their jobs as a direct result of Britain leaving the EU. Do you want to be responsible for that?

We took an evidence-based look at the immigration and EU issue above. But the Leave campaign and Eurosceptic press (Express, Sun and Mail in particular) choose to paint a very different picture. A picture which blows these statistics out of all proportion. 'Strangers in Our Own Country' 'Our borders are out of control!'. You know the stuff I mean. Pictures which invite us to eye our friends and neighbours with suspicion and even hostility. Editorial which pins the blame for every problem from housing to wages to traffic to NHS waiting times on immigrants.

And it's not even because they don't know any better. The leaders of the Leave campaign and the political editors of those newspapers are clever, well-educated people. They know the facts I set out above just as well as I do.

Yet instead of presenting a balanced view, they choose to deliberately whip up fear and suspicion of immigrants for their own political purposes.

Shame on them.

Why? Because appealing to people's basest prejudices sells newspapers and gathers votes. Just ask Donald Trump.

And what greater contrast could there be between the divisive rhetoric of the leave campaign and the noble vision of the EU's founding fathers.

Men who, amid the ashes of World War Two, set their national differences aside and dared - not just to dream but to build - a better Europe for us all.

A Europe in which war was “not only unthinkable … but materially impossible” (16).

Here’s Winston Churchill addressing the Congress of Europe in 1948:

“A high and a solemn responsibility rests upon us here ... If we allow ourselves to be rent and disordered by pettiness and small disputes, if we fail in clarity of view or courage in action, a priceless occasion may be cast away for ever. But if we all pull together and pool the luck and the comradeship - and we shall need all the comradeship and not a little luck … then all the little children who are now growing up in this tormented world may find themselves not the victors nor the vanquished in the fleeting triumphs of one country over another in the bloody turmoil of … war, but the heirs of all the treasures of the past and the masters of all the science, the abundance and the glories of the future.”

And - against all the odds - we did it.

We pooled the luck and the comradeship and achieved Churchill’s vision.

Those “little children” are now retired – the first generation in a thousand years to grow up without the horror of war in Europe.

Instead of building weapons, our scientists work together to solve the greatest problems of our age.

We enjoy a standard of living unimaginable to people in 1948.

All the cities, art, history, people, food and culture of this wonderful continent are open to us whenever we want to visit, to live or to work.

Hundreds of millions of European people who until only a few decades ago were ruled by dictators or communists now enjoy democracy, human rights, the rule of law and the abundance of the free market.

I think that’s worth 36 pence a day.

And yet here we stand, about to turn our backs on this great project, thanks to cynical newspaper owners and barefaced lies from the Leave campaign.

Forget what the Sun says.

Forget what’s good for Boris’ and Farage’s careers.

Listen to every current and former British Prime Minister (17). Every other major UK political party leader (18). To Barack Obama, to Hillary Clinton, to Angela Merkel and a host of other world leaders (19). To Stephen Hawking and 83% of scientists (20). To 40 religious leaders (21). To 300 leading historians (22). To the Trades Union Congress and our six largest trades unions (23). To 88% of economists (24). To the National Farmers Union (25). To the Chief Executive of NHS England (26), to the Royal College of Midwives (27) To British businesses of all sizes (28).

For there is an overwhelming consensus among experts of all kinds that Britain is stronger in Europe.

And what does the Leave campaign say to this?

“I think people in this country have had enough of experts” (Michael Gove, Friday 3rd June)

What an extraordinary response.

If you were sick, you’d want to see a doctor. If you had a plane to fly, you’d want a pilot. So when we have the most important political, economic and foreign policy decision of our lifetime to make I think we should listen to the people who are in the best position to evaluate what to do. And they’re all telling us the same thing – we’re much better off in Europe.

It might not be what Michael Gove wants to hear. But it sounds like the right answer to me.

So when you’re in the polling station on Thursday 23rd - with that stubby little pencil in your hand –Vote Remain.

Not in fear, but with pride – about what we, the people of Europe, have achieved together.

Not in ignorance, but with science firmly on our side.

And not alone, but with the greatest statesmen of the past three generations urging us on.

And then in years to come, when your children ask you how you voted in the referendum of 2016, you can look them in the eye and tell them you were on the right side of history.

Thank you for reading

(1) https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/
(2) https://www.ons.gov.uk/…/populationandm…/populationestimates
(3) http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-…/…
(4) http://www.economist.com/…/21631076-rather-lot-according-ne…
(5) http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/ea019.pdf
(6) https://fullfact.org/euro…/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/
(7) http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngla…/thenhs/about/Pages/overview.aspx
(8) http://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/publications/comms/r116.pdf
(9) http://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/publications/comms/r116.pdf
(10) https://next.ft.com/co…/7fa04d70-d911-11e5-a72f-1e7744c66818
(11) https://www.theguardian.com/…/brexit-could-wipe-20-percent-…
(12) https://next.ft.com/co…/7e26d896-241c-11e6-9d4d-c11776a5124d
(13) BBC Radio 4, 3rd June 2016; see also http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36450460
(14) http://www.thetimes.co.uk/…/i-can-t-guarantee-everyone-will…
(15) https://www.politicshome.com/…/arron-banks-%C2%A34300-loss-…
(16) http://www.robert-schuman.eu/en/declaration-of-9-may-1950
(17) David Cameron http://www.theguardian.com/…/david-cameron-launches-tory-ca… ; Gordon Brown http://www.theguardian.com/…/inspiring-view-britishness-def…; Tony Blair http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36408239; John Major http://www.telegraph.co.uk/…/John-Major-Voting-to-leave-wil…
(18) Jeremy Corbyn (Labour) http://labourlist.org/…/europe-needs-to-change-but-i-am-vo…/ Tim Farron (Lib Dem) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/…/Britain-impoverished-backwater… Caroline Lucas (Green) http://europe.newsweek.com/caroline-lucas-brexit-european-r… Nicola Sturgeon (SNP) http://www.thesun.co.uk/…/Nicola-Sturgeon-vows-to-back-argu…
(19) Barack Obama http://www.telegraph.co.uk/…/as-your-friend-let-me-tell-you… ; Hillary Clinton http://www.theguardian.com/…/hillary-clinton-britain-should… Angela Merkel http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36436726; Shinzo Abe http://www.telegraph.co.uk/…/japanese-prime-minister-shinz…/
(20) https://www.theguardian.com/…/stephen-hawking-donald-trump-… ; http://www.nature.com/…/scientists-say-no-to-uk-exit-from-e…
(21) http://www.theguardian.com/…/religious-leaders-oppose-brexit
(22) http://www.theguardian.com/…/vote-to-leave-eu-will-condemn-…
(23) http://uk.reuters.com/ar…/uk-britain-eu-unions-idUKKCN0V517D
(24) http://www.itv.com/…/almost-nine-in-10-economists-believe-…/
(25) http://www.theguardian.com/…/british-farmers-uk-eu-nfu-brex…
(26) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36353145
(27) https://www.rcm.org.uk/…/royal-college-of-midwives-supports…
(28) http://www.independent.co.uk/…/brexit-eu-referendum-what-wi…

Edited June 8, 2016 by jeffie

[eFestivals]

29 minutes ago, Thevorpalblade said:

I'm happy for the people of Latvia to tell me what to do. I'm in.

When you have to post such obvious lies, your case is weak.

And, in case you've missed it, no nationality owns the best ideas. If there's a Latvian idea that gains sufficient support around other countries in Europe whilst the UK objects, I have no problem going along with that. I'm not small-minded enough to think the UK's view is always the right view.

[hfuhruhurr]

5 minutes ago, Jennylucky said:

What you are voting for is UK sovereignty. You are voting to stay in or leave a political union of leaders and representatives that you British people did not elect. You are voting against a commission of unelected, elite men that nobody at all voted for and yet they make decisions on our behalf. You are simply voting to bring sovereignty back to Westminster, and that is all. If you worry about that because you don't like the Conservative government, look at the reality. Their majority in parliament is very slim. They have been blocked on big decisions already. You are therefore not giving sovereignty to David Cameron, but to the UK House of elected representatives. Do not be fooled by the fear campaigns that are simply run by the wealthy, who need EU money to thrive! Think about the future, and your family's future.

Is this your fundamental reason to be out?

Because as said on this and other forums, the above just isn't true.

But, imagine for a minute it was. Who are you handing power to - Farage, Johnson, IDM and Gove - are they your heroes? Do those elite men reflect your values?

Are these elite men to be believed more than pretty much all other commentators? It honestly isn't a conspiracy or a fear campaign. The remain people are trying their best with logic to stop your base emotions from making you jump off a cliff.

[eFestivals]

16 minutes ago, Jennylucky said:

You are not voting to leave the EEA or WTO, meaning all of the UK's trade and benefit agreements will remain unchanged should we leave, until such a time that the UK decides to renegotiate them for any reason.

perhaps the reason the UK might decide to is because the UK is obliged to, by treaty?

Just a thought.

Of course, the UK can always be worthless on the world stage by not following its treaty obligations.

[jeffie]

I'll just leave this.

Britain, car boot sales are us!

Edited June 8, 2016 by jeffie

[not worthy]

This thread really is informative!

I have one key question left to form my opinion, if we leave there'll be no change to the eligibility of UK golfers for the Ryder Cup team, right?

[Spindles]

Lovely post that Jeffie. 

[clarkete]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Anyway, get back to me only if you can be bothered with the googling to find a listing of the many polls done on the subject.

I don't disagree that there were plenty of people who wanted one, just disagree about your use of the word majority.  At the moment googling for referendum polls would be no fun whatsoever, so I'm not doing it either  

37 minutes ago, Jennylucky said:

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about June 23rd, and people want to know the facts. Here are some:

I'd say there seems to be far less of an issue with misunderstanding than there is with people who believe the exit view and just paste in large chunks of text which contain either half truths or out and out lies.

[jeffie]

15 minutes ago, Spindles said:

Lovely post that Jeffie. 

I thank you

[jumbomcnutt]

58 minutes ago, Jennylucky said:

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about June 23rd, and people want to know the facts. Here are some:....

....cut for space....

....What you are voting for is UK sovereignty. You are voting to stay in or leave a political union of leaders and representatives that you British people did not elect. You are voting against a commission of unelected, elite men that nobody at all voted for and yet they make decisions on our behalf. You are simply voting to bring sovereignty back to Westminster, and that is all. If you worry about that because you don't like the Conservative government, look at the reality. Their majority in parliament is very slim. They have been blocked on big decisions already. You are therefore not giving sovereignty to David Cameron, but to the UK House of elected representatives. Do not be fooled by the fear campaigns that are simply run by the wealthy, who need EU money to thrive! Think about the future, and your family's future.

If you are going to copy and paste Chris Baird's original post on "Leave E.U." Facebook group 1st June, at least quote it as his work and not your own. And as a side note, it has many errors, inaccuracies and scaremonger in it itself. Which is quite ironic.

[eFestivals]

24 minutes ago, clarkete said:

I don't disagree that there were plenty of people who wanted one, just disagree about your use of the word majority.  At the moment googling for referendum polls would be no fun whatsoever, so I'm not doing it either  

I don't blame you. I did try earlier, but realised with the first page of results it'd be no easy task.

But please note that I didn't say they were exclusively in favour of a ref, but the majority were. I know everything looks and feels differently right now in the middle of this campaign, but it's worth remembering that all elections since 1992 have seen the major parties putting some form of ref around the EU in their manifestos, and often for bigger-minded reasons than because the out-ers have been shouting loudly.

[clarkete]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

But please note that I didn't say they were exclusively in favour of a ref, but the majority were. I know everything looks and feels differently right now in the middle of this campaign, but it's worth remembering that all elections since 1992 have seen the major parties putting some form of ref around the EU in their manifestos, and often for bigger-minded reasons than because the out-ers have been shouting loudly.

I've certainly had some in the nineties where I got off my fat botty and did more, nobody cared about the foreigners then, just their taxes or personal finances.

I knew you'd make me regret disagreeing with you though  

[6t6o6m]

2 hours ago, Thevorpalblade said:

Since us 'innies' are not hypocrites, I'm sure that you'll all agree that we should join the Euro.

After all, if we stay in we'll still be financially contributing regardless of our adoption, or not, of the Euro.

I'm no hypocrite. Are you?

Vote IN to remain and join the Euro.

Did you join this festival forum to talk about the referendum?

[6t6o6m]

2 hours ago, not worthy said:

This thread really is informative!

I have one key question left to form my opinion, if we leave there'll be no change to the eligibility of UK golfers for the Ryder Cup team, right?

It's Europe vs USA so of course not.

But you already knew this 

[Waapster]

3 hours ago, Thevorpalblade said:

I'm happy for the people of Latvia to tell me what to do. I'm in.

Latvia does not command a majority vote on any EU decision making body. Its more democratic than that (or you are just a liar).

[Waapster]

3 hours ago, Thevorpalblade said:

Since us 'innies' are not hypocrites, I'm sure that you'll all agree that we should join the Euro.

After all, if we stay in we'll still be financially contributing regardless of our adoption, or not, of the Euro.

I'm no hypocrite. Are you?

Vote IN to remain and join the Euro.

No serious British political party wants to join the Euro. There is no prospect of it happening. 

You should try trolling on a slightly more intelligent level.

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, Waapster said:

No serious British political party wants to join the Euro. There is no prospect of it happening. 

Funnily enough, even if a party wanted it to happen it couldn't. The UK doesn't meet the Euro entry criteria, our economy is too fucked.

Yep, that's right, the disaster currency that's been on the verge of instant collapse since the moment of its launch 16 years ago is too strong a currency to be able to accept the UK.

In fact, the Euro has been such a disaster and the glorious pound such a success that the Euro is far stronger against the pound today than on the day of the Euro's launch.

http://www.pounds2euro.com/Charts

I'm thinking someone somewhere might not like these awkward facts.

[Guest]

I'll vote in the morning before going down

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Scruffylovemonster said:

Who's the lucky fella?

[RichardWaller]

Dunno if Facebook trends are the same for everyone but just logged on this morning and noticed the top one being "Mick Hucknall calls Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn a spineless coward over EU". Shouldn't be anything new, the campaigns have mainly been lies and insults, and Corbyn's had a hell of a lot of that since he got elected anyway, but coming from Mick Hucknall... doesn't really strike me as a man of any relevance, but I suppose anyone slagging off Corbyn is headlineworthy. 

[eFestivals]

17 minutes ago, RichardWaller said:

Dunno if Facebook trends are the same for everyone but just logged on this morning and noticed the top one being "Mick Hucknall calls Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn a spineless coward over EU". Shouldn't be anything new, the campaigns have mainly been lies and insults, and Corbyn's had a hell of a lot of that since he got elected anyway, but coming from Mick Hucknall... doesn't really strike me as a man of any relevance, but I suppose anyone slagging off Corbyn is headlineworthy. 

It was days ago Hucknall said that. Good to see the arse-wipers are so on the money as normal.

Can to fill us in why someone who's been prominent in the Labour movement for over 30 years - more years than Jezza, btw - isn't permitted his opinion?

Where is Jezza, anyway? No one seems to know. Which was Hucknall's point, I think.

Is it important we stay in, or is it important we leave, or doesn't it matter? If Jezza isn't leading Labour it doesn't matter to Jezza.

 

[FuzzyDunlop]

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

It was days ago Hucknall said that. Good to see the arse-wipers are so on the money as normal.

Can to fill us in why someone who's been prominent in the Labour movement for over 30 years - more years than Jezza, btw - isn't permitted his opinion?

Where is Jezza, anyway? No one seems to know. Which was Hucknall's point, I think.

Is it important we stay in, or is it important we leave, or doesn't it matter? If Jezza isn't leading Labour it doesn't matter to Jezza.

 

I think (I maybe wrong) but Jezza is an "outer" isn't he traditionally? I think he is keeping a low profile to not give Tories anything to aim at. They are infighting themselves.

[RichardWaller]

11 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

It was days ago Hucknall said that. Good to see the arse-wipers are so on the money as normal.

Can to fill us in why someone who's been prominent in the Labour movement for over 30 years - more years than Jezza, btw - isn't permitted his opinion?

Where is Jezza, anyway? No one seems to know. Which was Hucknall's point, I think.

Is it important we stay in, or is it important we leave, or doesn't it matter? If Jezza isn't leading Labour it doesn't matter to Jezza.

 

I generally don't tend to pay attention to much he says, only came to me attention cos of Facebook.

Here we go again... Did I say he isn't permitted his opinion? Bringing longevity into it just smacks a bit of respect your elders. I can understand pop stars, actors, celebrities being asked their political opinions when they're current and in the public eye but Mick Hucknall seemed to spring out of nowhere to me and that's just me. Suppose the lad's got a tour to sell.

Fair enough, ask where Jeremy is, ask what his stance is but what's the need to carry on with the stream of nasty personal insults?

Edited June 9, 2016 by RichardWaller