Are we In or Out?

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, Thevorpalblade said:

Look at Eurovision... vote IN to be 'outvoted' by the combined might of ....

Bulgaria, Croatia, Cypris, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Greece.

Yes, how dare they not realise that our song is the best just because it's a British song.

 

[Thevorpalblade]

The Average wage in Albania is 330 Euros each month.

To the 3 million fIne people of Albania, I say come. Join us. You're welcome.

Clean cars, claim benefits, declare no income and pay no taxes. Your families will be wealthy.

Vote IN to welcome up to 3million Albanians. 

[Thevorpalblade]

The average wage in Turkey is less than the equivalent of 600 Euros. They'll soon have free access to the whole of Europe.

Vote IN to welcome up to 70 million Turk's and not be able to control the numbers.

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, Thevorpalblade said:

The Average wage in Albania is 330 Euros each month.

To the 3 million fIne people of Albania, I say come. Join us. You're welcome.

Clean cars, claim benefits, declare no income and pay no taxes. Your families will be wealthy.

Vote IN to welcome up to 3million Albanians. 

yep, and Nigel was right just as you are here.

All of the promised 29 million from Romania and Bulgaria are here, I met them all yesterday.

[Mardy]

Man, do you live your life in fear? Terrible way to live.

 

there are at least 10 countries, according to the OECD, that have higher monthly income than the UK. Do you think all 60 million residents of the UK are making plans to go and move to these places? 

[majormajormajor]

5 minutes ago, Thevorpalblade said:

The average wage in Turkey is less than the equivalent of 600 Euros. They'll soon have free access to the whole of Europe.

Vote IN to welcome up to 70 million Turk's and not be able to control the numbers.

If you can't add anything constructive to the debate, then fuck off. Bottom of the barrel trolling is better served on the Daily Mail website.

Edited June 11, 2016 by majormajormajor

[majormajormajor]

11 hours ago, mikegday said:

^ I haven't read above, so I appologise if my ignorance repeats other posts.

I'm half Aussie/half Brit after living in Aus for 9 years. I love Britiain hence moving back 2 years ago. BUT. The EU isn't working.

Australia's immigration policy isn't perfect, but it's certainly better than the UK's. I think all European countries should reject the free movement of people. Countries should be allowed to pick and choose the people they grant visas and citizenship to according to what that country needs at that time. A applicant from Brazil, should be assessed under the same criteria as someone from Spain. If you have guaranteed employment or proven experience/education in a skill currently required in the UK that should take priority over your current citizenship. I have heard the arguments about the UK needing EU citizens to do seasonal work. Well Australia needs seasonal agriculture workers so they encourage backpackers to take up that work for 3 months, in return you get granted an extension on your backpacking visa. Instead of giving Aussies 2 years straight away to live in the UK. Why couldn't that system be put into place here, those on working holiday visas in the UK either have to do seasonal work or charity work for a couple of months to get an extended visa. Leaving the EU will also allow European citizens are who settled here to become British citizens and commit ceremoniously to life in the UK.

In regards to the economy no tariff or very low tariff trade will continue regardless, it is absurd to think the common market would want to impose penalties on our large economy - it works both ways and will penalise them too! My office is also being closed as they have opened an office in Romania. It's probably not the best time for someone to go through this, but it has made me wonder if businesses are able to relocate easier in the EU - for this reason I challenge how much job security the EU brings. Clearly this is based on the recent events in my work in life. The world is a very small place now and products world wide sell for relatively similar prices - that will not change if we're in or out of the EU. Anything suggesting otherwise is a blatant scare tactic.

Overall I think Britain needs to believe in its self a bit more. We need a bit more pride in our country. One of my favourite days in Australia is Australia Day - there is nothing like that here! I'm hoping by leaving the EU, we look both inward more AND outward to the world more. In my eyes this EU bubble is very restrictive, there's a whole world out there! 

For the above reasons im voting out.

 

 

 

You're basically arguing for the UK to become more nationalist. That is the last thing that is needed, although seeing who is leading the 'out' campaign, it isn't surprising that people are being goaded down that path.

Also, I have to -- Australia Day? Nobody in Australia gives a toss about Australia Day. It's just a day off work, so you have a barbecue in the sun and get pissed. The only people who do care are that scary minority who have those 'fuck off we're full' bumper stickers and southern cross tattoos. Flag waving idiots.

[eFestivals]

11 minutes ago, majormajormajor said:

If you can't add anything constructive to the debate, then fuck off. Bottom of the barrel trolling is better served on the Daily Mail website.

Hey, him as an out-er thinks those are constructive for out, and me an an inner reckon they're constructive to in.

I'm quite happy for him to show off the level of his argument. I'm quite happy to trust that people here are plenty smart enough to see how poor it is themselves.

Feel free to say how you feel about his posts, but not that he shouldn't post them.

Edited June 11, 2016 by eFestivals

[Keithy]

Sadly i think leave will win. Remain have lost all control over their approach and not giving a clear message. I really wish they had put forward a strong, clear case for staying in the EU, highlighting the the regeneration funds that were used after the Manchester IRA bombing, the regeneration of liverpool, the regeneration of Cornwall, the importance to farming (Eavis is in!), how freedom of movement has broadened our horizons, the rights we now have because of the EU, how there are elections to elect local MEP's.....reengage disaffected people with the EU.

But instead we've had a negative remain campaign centred around the fact that leave have no plan, no economic forecasts and completely misunderstanding that for lots of brexiters, the 'blank canvas' approach of Leave is exactly the attraction not a thing to fear.

Short of Leave having a Devon Loch moment or the younger generation realising in huge numbers that the over 50 generation are deciding their future and turning out to vote Remain, the vote has been lost to Leave i fear.

[Mr.Tease]

13 minutes ago, Thevorpalblade said:

The average wage in Turkey is less than the equivalent of 600 Euros. They'll soon have free access to the whole of Europe.

Vote IN to welcome up to 70 million Turk's and not be able to control the numbers.

Do you think everyone really goes to all the effort of moving to another country because the wages are higher?- why haven't you done this?

Plus this sudden obsession with Turkey joining the EU (aside from not happening), has racist undertones.

[uscore]

20 minutes ago, Thevorpalblade said:

The average wage in Turkey is less than the equivalent of 600 Euros. They'll soon have free access to the whole of Europe.

Vote IN to welcome up to 70 million Turk's and not be able to control the numbers.

^ this is the kind of person who will say this kind of thing and then the next minute complain about Project Fear of the REMAIN campaign! 

[majormajormajor]

8 minutes ago, Keithy said:

Sadly i think leave will win. Remain have lost all control over their approach and not giving a clear message. I really wish they had put forward a strong, clear case for staying in the EU, highlighting the the regeneration funds that were used after the Manchester IRA bombing, the regeneration of liverpool, the regeneration of Cornwall, the importance to farming (Eavis is in!), how freedom of movement has broadened our horizons, the rights we now have because of the EU, how there are elections to elect local MEP's.....reengage disaffected people with the EU.

But instead we've had a negative remain campaign centred around the fact that leave have no plan, no economic forecasts and completely misunderstanding that for lots of brexiters, the 'blank canvas' approach of Leave is exactly the attraction not a thing to fear.

Short of Leave having a Devon Loch moment or the younger generation realising in huge numbers that the over 50 generation are deciding their future and turning out to vote Remain, the vote has been lost to Leave i fear.

Jeremy Corbyn is culpable in my opinion. If he'd manned up and shared a stage with Cameron, the issue would have been put to bed. I would be extremely uncomfortable with the idea of joining up with Cameron, but given the stakes, it just has to be done. The UK is sleepwalking towards the exit door, and Corbyn is the invisible man. If you're in, you're in - and campaign for it; if you're not, then the same rules apply. If the leader of a major political party doesn't want to campaign on such a hugely important issue, then he needs to find a new job. I think it's a disgrace.

[eFestivals]

15 minutes ago, Keithy said:

Sadly i think leave will win. Remain have lost all control over their approach and not giving a clear message. I really wish they had put forward a strong, clear case for staying in the EU, highlighting the the regeneration funds that were used after the Manchester IRA bombing, the regeneration of liverpool, the regeneration of Cornwall,

It's just not a great argument, that's why.

There were UK re-generation funds before that competence was transferred to Brussels, just as (for comparison) there were UK farmers subsidies before those were transferred to Brussels.

Given that we give the EU more than we get back, it's hard to seriously suggest that anything of these sorts of subsidies would change for the worst in the short or medium-term, even tho you (might) perhaps worry over the longer term - but when there's the same no-guarantee the EU will stick with them over the longer-term either. The EU goes where its member states take it with stuff like this

Edited June 11, 2016 by eFestivals

[Keithy]

9 minutes ago, majormajormajor said:

Jeremy Corbyn is culpable in my opinion. If he'd manned up and shared a stage with Cameron, the issue would have been put to bed. I would be extremely uncomfortable with the idea of joining up with Cameron, but given the stakes, it just has to be done. The UK is sleepwalking towards the exit door, and Corbyn is the invisible man. If you're in, you're in - and campaign for it; if you're not, then the same rules apply. If the leader of a major political party doesn't want to campaign on such a hugely important issue, then he needs to find a new job. I think it's a disgrace.

Agree entirely. I suspect that the underlying issue is that Corbyn is either (a) a brexiter in a remain party or (b) if he campaigns with Cameron and Remain win, it'll be seen as Camerons victory or (c) the Remain  campaign think he is too toxic and have actually requested to stay away.

I do wonder if Corbyn is stuck in short term thinking and believes a leave victory and Johnson as PM will be easier to defeat in a general election...which may be a snap election in a few months when the votes of no confidence have been passed.

Edited June 11, 2016 by Keithy

[majormajormajor]

1 minute ago, Keithy said:

Agree entirely. I suspect that the underlying issue is that Corbyn is either (a) a brexiter in a remain party or (b) if he campaigns with Cameron and Leave win, it'll be seen as Camerons victory or (c) the Leave campaign think he is too toxic and have actually requested to stay away.

I do wonder if Corbyn is stuck in short term thinking and believes a leave victory and Johnson as PM will be easier to defeat in a general election...which may be a snap election in a few months when the votes of no confidence have been passed.

I've thought about this too. I think he's just sitting back and letting it all unfold, watching the Tories delve into civil war. It's not positive, the issue is too important to take that stance. Or perhaps private polling for the leave campaign suggests he's toxic, and keep him away. Unlikely though.

He's probably just a fence sitter. It's extremely weak in any case.

[Mr.Tease]

16 minutes ago, Keithy said:

Agree entirely. I suspect that the underlying issue is that Corbyn is either (a) a brexiter in a remain party or (b) if he campaigns with Cameron and Remain win, it'll be seen as Camerons victory or (c) the Remain  campaign think he is too toxic and have actually requested to stay away.

I do wonder if Corbyn is stuck in short term thinking and believes a leave victory and Johnson as PM will be easier to defeat in a general election...which may be a snap election in a few months when the votes of no confidence have been passed.

 

16 minutes ago, Keithy said:

Agree entirely. I suspect that the underlying issue is that Corbyn is either (a) a brexiter in a remain party or (b) if he campaigns with Cameron and Remain win, it'll be seen as Camerons victory or (c) the Remain  campaign think he is too toxic and have actually requested to stay away.

I do wonder if Corbyn is stuck in short term thinking and believes a leave victory and Johnson as PM will be easier to defeat in a general election...which may be a snap election in a few months when the votes of no confidence have been passed.

Who would honestly buy Corbyn sharing a platform with Cameron, declaring their love for the EU? Honestly, would you? They despise each other! Would any voter honestly think "well, I was going to vote leave, but no Jeremy Corbyn AND David Cameron are on a stage together I simply MUST change my mind!".Corbyn's stance is at least a believable one- he's not keen on the EU, but considers an exit under the Tories as worse due to the firesale of human rights and worker rights. If he'd spent the campaign pretending that he's really enthusiastic about the EU, no one would have believed him. His stance resonates with me because it's roughly my position. 

And think longer term- look at the damage sharing a platform with the Tories did to Labour in Scotland. If Exit wins, and Labour has cosied up to the Tories, then there's a big danger both parties will be punished post-referendum.

The Remain campaign is complete cack, to the point where I'm glad I've already sent of my postal vote to Remain because it very annoying and off putting, but the bottom line is Cameron, Corbyn, whomever can't make people vote a certain way, people will just decide themselves based on which argument emotionally resonates with them- they will then use that gut feeling to filter out the facts and information accordingly, same way everyone decides on anything.

Edited June 11, 2016 by Mr.Tease

[mikegday]

45 minutes ago, majormajormajor said:

You're basically arguing for the UK to become more nationalist.

.. and this is a bad thing? If by nationalistic you mean im patriotic and believe Britain is better than a lot of other countries then yes I'm a nationalist. The lifestyle and opportunities we receive because we're British is unquestionable.  We all have a better life here than if we were born in some other countries - that's something to be thankful for and celebrate, not be ashamed of.

I'm not being goaded by anyone. Oh and I'm 25 - a big majority of young people I talk to are either undecided or voting out. It's untrue that the old vote out and the young vote in.

Edited June 11, 2016 by mikegday

[Mr.Tease]

3 minutes ago, mikegday said:

.. and this is a bad thing? If by nationalistic you mean im pratrioctic and believe Britain is better than a lot of other countries then yes I'm a nationalist. The lifestyle and opportunities we receive because we're British is unquestionable.  We all have a better life here than if we were born in some other countries - that's something to be thankful for and celebrate, not be ashamed of.

I'm not being goaded by anyone. Oh and I'm 25 - a big majority of young people I talk to are either undecided or voting out. It's untrue that the old vote out and the young vote in.

So, you're saying we're fortunate to have been born where we are, and have an easier life as a result. So let's raise the barricades and keep it all to ourselves? You realise this country is in the position it's in because it got rich by historically exploiting, enslaving and stealing from those countries that are worse off, don't you? But yes, lets be proud and celebrate the result of imperialism and ignore all the atrocities! 

[Watto1990]

1 hour ago, Thevorpalblade said:

Look at Eurovision... vote IN to be 'outvoted' by the combined might of ....

Bulgaria, Croatia, Cypris, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Greece.

Hi, I just really wanted you to know it was your posts in this thread that finally convinced me to vote Remain. Ain't throwing my lot in with this sort of madness, thank thee very much.

[Trout Mask Replica]

I'm in. I work in field which is subject to a lot of EU regulations, most of them are well thought through and deliver huge benefit to our quality of life here.

Apart from that one doesn't vote oneself out of a job either so that's my self interest laid bare.

[RichardWaller]

38 minutes ago, majormajormajor said:

Jeremy Corbyn is culpable in my opinion. If he'd manned up and shared a stage with Cameron, the issue would have been put to bed. I would be extremely uncomfortable with the idea of joining up with Cameron, but given the stakes, it just has to be done. The UK is sleepwalking towards the exit door, and Corbyn is the invisible man. If you're in, you're in - and campaign for it; if you're not, then the same rules apply. If the leader of a major political party doesn't want to campaign on such a hugely important issue, then he needs to find a new job. I think it's a disgrace.

He was on the Last Leg last night explaining why he hasn't shared a platform with Cameron, in that they both want to remain but for entirely different reasons. Cameron's being mainly about business, Corbyn's being more about rights. If he manned up as you put it, and shared a platform with Cameron on this, people would only call him a hypocrite. Mind you, Cameron seems to have got off fairly lightly for sharing a platform with Sadiq Khan after spending the Mayor of Londoj campaign desperately chucking any old crap at him.

As was mentioned a few pages ago, Corbyn is campaigning https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/opinion/politicshome/75963/jeremy-corbyn-campaigning-hard-eu. And there's two sides to blame there, there's a bit of a gulf between Corbyn and the media. Yes, opponents will say that Corbyn should use the media to his advantage but I dunno, with the string of attacks on him so far and the barrel being scraped I'm not sure how plausible it is. I wouldn't want to engage with people who've been spreading malicious lies about me, either.

31 minutes ago, Keithy said:

Agree entirely. I suspect that the underlying issue is that Corbyn is either (a) a brexiter in a remain party or (b) if he campaigns with Cameron and Remain win, it'll be seen as Camerons victory or (c) the Remain  campaign think he is too toxic and have actually requested to stay away.

I do wonder if Corbyn is stuck in short term thinking and believes a leave victory and Johnson as PM will be easier to defeat in a general election...which may be a snap election in a few months when the votes of no confidence have been passed.

I think it's more B, can just imagine the speeches from Cameron about him leading and Corbyn following. They're different people who want the same thing for different reasons.

[mikegday]

23 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

So let's raise the barricades and keep it all to ourselves? 

No I'm not saying that. I'm saying lets erect a fence with a gate. Then we'll be able to open and close the gate as we please. I'm not voting out to stop immigration, we need immigration and the UK is clearly better for it - I just believe entry shouldnt be a right and should be granted according to what the UK needs at that time.

Don't forget we apply to attend a festival surrounded by a massive wall of steel, it too has gates, it too controls who comes in. The result is an enjoyable festival, in relative safety. Would we all enjoy Glastonbury as much if there was no fence and a million people turned up on the Wednesday? We have controls to maintain order. 

Your last point is irrelevant to the debate. Atrocities committed by the British empire don't change by having uncapped EU immigration does it? We personally didn't commit those acts and as I explained and im over the moon to share what we have here in the UK with anyone, provided you go through the same application process and are granted entry under the same criteria as every other applicant. 

Edited June 11, 2016 by mikegday

[Gnomicide]

26 minutes ago, mikegday said:

.. and this is a bad th tng? If by nationalistic you mean im patriotic and believe Britain is better than a lot of other countries then yes I'm a nationalist. The lifestyle and opportunities we receive because we're British is unquestionable.  We all have a better life here than if we were born in some other countries - that's something to be thankful for and celebrate, not be ashamed of.

I'm not being goaded by anyone. Oh and I'm 25 - a big majority of young people I talk to are either undecided or voting out. It's untrue that the old vote out and the young vote in.

A better life than where? Germany, Spain, France, Greece, Turkey. 

Our wages may be higher than many countries but so Is the cost of living. Move here, get paid more, spend It all on renting a one bedroom flat.

[HalfAnIdiot]

Corbyn has made his position quite clear. I'n my view it is well reasoned and genuine.

Sharing a platform with Cameron would be toxic to Corbin and his plans. I't shouldn't happen.

BUT Corbyn needs to figure out how to use the media to his advantage. The Last Leg really doesn't cut it, he needs a better platform.

[eFestivals]

45 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

Corbyn's stance is at least a believable one

That may or may not be true.

What it definitely is is a quiet one, with 45% of Labour voters not apparently aware of the Labour Party's position on the EU ref.

Those 45% can be written off as a bit daft for not knowing, or greater efforts might instead be made to inform them and so (hopefully) win the vote in the way the party wants.

Over to you, Jezza.