Are we In or Out?

[Gnomicide]

That 45% was from a few weeks back, there have been more Labour politicians on show since, stating their case but they still need to do a lot more.

I thought Corbyn was very good on The Last Leg but he now needs to be on the Sunday politics shows, Newsnight etc.

[RichardWaller]

9 minutes ago, Gnomicide said:

That 45% was from a few weeks back, there have been more Labour politicians on show since, stating their case but they still need to do a lot more.

I thought Corbyn was very good on The Last Leg but he now needs to be on the Sunday politics shows, Newsnight etc.

I thought he came across quite well too, it's a decent demographic but there are tougher crowds and I agree, more appearances on the more serious shows could be better for him.

Has anyone tried to take him laughing at the absurdity of inadequate wheelchair access at the Paralympics and tried to spin it into him hating disabled people yet?

[Junglist1981]

Part of Corbyn's problem is that the majority of the press won't give him the time of day unless it's to slag him off, Guardian included.

I hate the newspapers, they have a detrimental effect on democracy and need to go.

[eFestivals]

Just now, Junglist1981 said:

Part of Corbyn's problem is that the majority of the press won't give him the time of day unless it's to slag him off, Guardian included.

I hate the newspapers, they have a detrimental effect on democracy and need to go.

If he engaged with them he stands the chance of at least some positive press, because he's the one able to set the agenda of the engagement. If he won't engage with them, he doesn't get to set any of their agenda and they're forced to look for other things to write about him.

Of course, he's giving himself a ready made excuse for failure. "I only failed because the press hate me because I'm not a tory".

Well that's bollocks. The press is the press, and while we can discuss their faults it's a part of what he HAS TO over-come if he's going to stand any chance at all of becoming PM.

 

[RichardWaller]

24 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

That may or may not be true.

What it definitely is is a quiet one, with 45% of Labour voters not apparently aware of the Labour Party's position on the EU ref.

Those 45% can be written off as a bit daft for not knowing, or greater efforts might instead be made to inform them and so (hopefully) win the vote in the way the party wants.

Over to you, Jezza.

You've jumped from Corbyn's position to Labour's position, they're not necessarily the same.

[RichardWaller]

5 minutes ago, Junglist1981 said:

Part of Corbyn's problem is that the majority of the press won't give him the time of day unless it's to slag him off, Guardian included.

I hate the newspapers, they have a detrimental effect on democracy and need to go.

Exactly. Yeah all politicians and people in public eye are susceptible to criticism and lies about them but it does seem a bit more disproportionate and desperate with Corbyn.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, RichardWaller said:

You've jumped from Corbyn's position to Labour's position, they're not necessarily the same.

So what you're saying is that Corbyn, as leader, is allowed to be against the party's position.

In which case no complaint can be made about any MPs being against Corbyn's personal position, either, right...?

 

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, RichardWaller said:

Exactly. Yeah all politicians and people in public eye are susceptible to criticism and lies about them but it does seem a bit more disproportionate and desperate with Corbyn.

it's no different to the levels of other Labour leaders. It might not be right or fair, but it is what it is and it's part of what must be overcome for election victory.

At one level all it is is scrutiny, or an opposing argument - where Corbyn refuses to even start to try to win the argument or even set the narrative. It makes me want to scream with frustration, as I've no doubt it works more against him than for him.

Edited June 11, 2016 by eFestivals

[RichardWaller]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

So what you're saying is that Corbyn, as leader, is allowed to be against the party's position.

In which case no complaint can be made about any MPs being against Corbyn's personal position, either, right...?

 

Stop telling people they're saying things they're not just to suit you.

Ideally a leader of any party ought to establish the party's position on any issue, they are the leader after all. But clearly, especially with Syria and Trident for Corbyn and Remain for Cameron, it doesn't always work like that.

[st dan]

5 minutes ago, RichardWaller said:

Exactly. Yeah all politicians and people in public eye are susceptible to criticism and lies about them but it does seem a bit more disproportionate and desperate with Corbyn.

I agree, but this is why many didn't want him being voted Labour leader in the first place. He's a dangling carrot for the press and an easy target for negative headlines. 

The figurehead of a party is much more vital than perhaps it should be. Still can't believe Andy Burnham wasnt elected as he would have been ideal. 

[brettredmayne]

Few leave voters on my Facebook are sharing an independent paper poll which puts them 10 points ahead.

I try and not belive polls but that's worrying 

[Digital Monkey (Womad)]

3 hours ago, Thevorpalblade said:

I'm happy to allow up to 70 million Turk's into Britain. There's plenty of space. Our hospitals can cope despite longer queues. And just think, it'll help relieve the burden on their health service.

Vote IN for uncontrolled immigration.

70 million. 

Hello Nigel.

[Digital Monkey (Womad)]

1 minute ago, brettredmayne said:

Few leave voters on my Facebook are sharing an independent paper poll which puts them 10 points ahead.

I try and not belive polls but that's worrying 

Absolutely.

[RichardWaller]

18 minutes ago, st dan said:

I agree, but this is why many didn't want him being voted Labour leader in the first place. He's a dangling carrot for the press and an easy target for negative headlines. 

The figurehead of a party is much more vital than perhaps it should be. Still can't believe Andy Burnham wasnt elected as he would have been ideal. 

I don't know how Corbyn can win to be honest..

Andy Burnham is certainly more media friendly, but I wouldn't have been happy with him as leader to be honest, this was the deal breaker for me Andy Burnham claims £17,000 a year in rent for London flat – despite owning another that's walking distance from Westminster, found that one pretty disgusting.

Edited June 11, 2016 by RichardWaller
Ended with shocking, nah not shocking, disgusting

[Digital Monkey (Womad)]

7 minutes ago, st dan said:

I agree, but this is why many didn't want him being voted Labour leader in the first place. He's a dangling carrot for the press and an easy target for negative headlines. 

The figurehead of a party is much more vital than perhaps it should be. Still can't believe Andy Burnham wasnt elected as he would have been ideal. 

I understand why Corbyn was favoured by the grassroots but we are definitely seeing now how dangerous the appointment of Corbyn could be. Very understandable that Blair was livid about the choice. Whatever happened to David Milliband?

I thought the days of right and left wing politics were over. Sadly, that is not looking the case and even more worrying if we do exit EU, Bojo could possibly become PM.

 

[Vacant0]

The right wing press certainly are undermining Jeremy Corbyn as strongly as possible. He's also undermining himself though. He basically won the leadership by accident and is currently leading the most spineless and ineffective opposition in living memory. 

Andy Burnham lost the leadership election for a reason. Different to Corbyn yes, but better, not at all.

As for this referendum, I'm getting increasingly concerned and frustrated by this incompetent and values-free Remain campaign. Its like all the worst aspects of the 'Yes to AV' and 'Britain Better Together' campaigns combined. Was certain we'd vote to stay in earlier this year, now not so sure.

Though, worth watching is a very good, and very short, video from Gordon Brown, below:
 

 

[eFestivals]

21 minutes ago, RichardWaller said:

Stop telling people they're saying things they're not just to suit you.

Ideally a leader of any party ought to establish the party's position on any issue, they are the leader after all. But clearly, especially with Syria and Trident for Corbyn and Remain for Cameron, it doesn't always work like that.

In this particular case (the euref) he has.

Having established that position, he doesn't appear to want to lead with it. Yes, I know he's campaigning, but he's doing it in a low profile way by his own choice, rather than in the ways that have come to be expected of a party leader.

I know there's no law that says he has to do it in the same way as others, but i think, it wouldn't be an over-statement to say that those others who did got the party position across more effectively. I want him to be a more effective leader.

[siblin]

 

15 hours ago, BLTN said:

If there's a way of making it work then I would, I just don't see any viable ways we could make it work without risking that layer of control. That's my only reason for wanting to leave, I think it's strong and sure it can be countered but hopefully you can understand why I think that. 

That's a bit defeatist and self fulfilling.  

As others have said this "layer of control" and "sovereignty" is a very woolly concept in an ever shrinking world where governments and countries have to cooperate.  You either do that with combined parliamentary politics or let your leading politicians hash things out.  I know what sounds more democratic to me.

[RichardWaller]

29 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

it's no different to the levels of other Labour leaders. It might not be right or fair, but it is what it is and it's part of what must be overcome for election victory.

At one level all it is is scrutiny, or an opposing argument - where Corbyn refuses to even start to try to win the argument or even set the narrative. It makes me want to scream with frustration, as I've no doubt it works more against him than for him.

We'll have to agree to disagree there. Did get pretty personal with Miliband about his dad hating Britain and whatnot but it's short of the hyperbole in the media about being being a threat to security etc.

I find it weird the level of expectation people have sometimes. Someone can point out a bad idea when they see it - really, they don't have to have the right solution to be able to know that but people still expect it. He's got his ideas, obviously very different to a big chunk of the Labour Party, and that same big chunk of the Labour Party has different ideas to the people who elected him. So course it's a bit messy, it's an unenviable job and I think with some people and publications, Corbyn is damned whatever he does. To some, if he doesn't assert himself he's weak, if he does he'll be a dictator.

[Avalon_Fields]

49 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

So what you're saying is that Corbyn, as leader, is allowed to be against the party's position.

In which case no complaint can be made about any MPs being against Corbyn's personal position, either, right...?

 

If he was acting honestly, then yes, as his own record was very frequently against his predecessors...

[RichardWaller]

9 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

In this particular case (the euref) he has.

Having established that position, he doesn't appear to want to lead with it. Yes, I know he's campaigning, but he's doing it in a low profile way by his own choice, rather than in the ways that have come to be expected of a party leader.

I know there's no law that says he has to do it in the same way as others, but i think, it wouldn't be an over-statement to say that those others who did got the party position across more effectively. I want him to be a more effective leader.

What would you like to see him doing in the EU campaign?

I've read criticisms on here about him not cooperating with Cameron on this. Maybe he's mindful of some of the other people who've cooperated with Cameron from other parties recently, Lib Dems and Scottish Labour in particular. Personally, I think Sadiq Khan is a fool for sharing a platform with Cameron after the campaign against him in London. Course, Corbyn could try other ways of being more effective but I think they're likely to involve shaking hands with the devil, just gotta weigh up the risk and I'm not sure the media are going to be any kinder to him if he's any more receptive of them..

[eFestivals]

13 minutes ago, RichardWaller said:

We'll have to agree to disagree there. Did get pretty personal with Miliband about his dad hating Britain and whatnot but it's short of the hyperbole in the media about being being a threat to security etc.

Sorry, but how's that hyperbole?

The country has a complete defence strategy. You or I might not agree with it but it's been agreed by parliament, and it is what it is and it includes nukes as an essential part of it.

Corbyn has said he wouldn't press the button if PM without regard to Parliament's opinion on it. How doesn't that undermine the UK's security strategy?

You can agree with Corbyn's take or not, but I can't see how you call the criticisms of the effect of his position hyperbole.

 

[st dan]

6 minutes ago, RichardWaller said:

What would you like to see him doing in the EU campaign?

I've read criticisms on here about him not cooperating with Cameron on this. Maybe he's mindful of some of the other people who've cooperated with Cameron from other parties recently, Lib Dems and Scottish Labour in particular. Personally, I think Sadiq Khan is a fool for sharing a platform with Cameron after the campaign against him in London. Course, Corbyn could try other ways of being more effective but I think they're likely to involve shaking hands with the devil, just gotta weigh up the risk and I'm not sure the media are going to be any kinder to him if he's any more receptive of them..

Surely the greater good for the country is better than any petty personal/party differences there may be between the Tories and Labour. 

This is such a huge vote which could potentially life changing consequences for many people. Surely little squabbles should be put aside and both parties should unite together for the remain campaign. 

They can then carry on with their squabbles as they please on 24th June up until the next general election. 

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, RichardWaller said:

What would you like to see him doing in the EU campaign?

I've read criticisms on here about him not cooperating with Cameron on this. Maybe he's mindful of some of the other people who've cooperated with Cameron from other parties recently, Lib Dems and Scottish Labour in particular. Personally, I think Sadiq Khan is a fool for sharing a platform with Cameron after the campaign against him in London. Course, Corbyn could try other ways of being more effective but I think they're likely to involve shaking hands with the devil, just gotta weigh up the risk and I'm not sure the media are going to be any kinder to him if he's any more receptive of them..

He can help drive the media narrative by engaging with the media. I can't say I know exactly how it's done, but every other leader seems to know so I doubt it's beyond Jeremy.

He doesn't have to necessarily share as platform with Cameron as far as I'm concerned, but he does need to encourage the media to better report what he's doing (perhaps by doing things differently), rather than be just about invisible as he is now.

It's got to the point where I'd almost prefer him to switch to out if that meant hearing something, anything, from him. I want Labour to have a leader that wants to lead.

[clarkete]

1 hour ago, mikegday said:

No I'm not saying that. I'm saying lets erect a fence with a gate. Then we'll be able to open and close the gate as we please. I'm not voting out to stop immigration, we need immigration and the UK is clearly better for it - I just believe entry shouldnt be a right and should be granted according to what the UK needs at that time.

The difference is that anyone can apply to go to the festival, that gate doesn't follow policies defined by Boris, Gove and IDS. 

There seems to be this fanciful notion, which you have followed, that you can massively cut down on the number of people entering the country without:-

Firstly that affecting the amount of money coming into the country.

Secondly affecting the ability of our citizens to move as freely to other countries.

If people wish to take drastic action that's one thing, but they have to accept that there will be potentially severe consequences for their actions.