Are we In or Out?

[windy_miller]

Just now, Ommadawn said:

And if we return to this thread in a year or two, we will be laughing at the doom-mongers and how wrong they were. 

How do I set an alarm to remind me to look at this thread in 2 years time?

[RichardWaller]

16 minutes ago, Keithy said:

Oh please. He said Labour were 'Remain' then tied the hands of the Remain campaigners, making them remove stuff from speeches and watering down the whole campaign to the extent labour voters didn't know clearly where the party stood!!!

Yes he's the democratically elected leader by a well organised group that has hijacked the membership. He is completely unelectable to the larger public. If you think Momentum are representative of the party as a whole and the general public, then you are completely delusional. The MP's know it, the non momentum members know it and the public knows it. The only 'coup' has been the far left taking over the party and locking us in to Corbyn. If he doesn't go, the party will split. Corbyn's far left socialist labour and a more moderate, modern, centralist labour.

What stuff did he have removed from speeches?

No, I don't think Momentum are representative, that much is abundantly obvious. And I don't think Momentum are the only people who voted him in either.

You say the "far left" is a coup, I say New Labour was. Labour are a party in disarray, I honestly have no idea what the party stands for anymore. I know I'd be putting it lightly to say Corbyn is a man who divides opinion, yes he's rebelled against his own leaders in the past (sometimes for good reason in my opinion, Iraq, tuition fees, Welfare Bill etc) but he's always done it respectfully. At least he hasn't been shouting to all and sundry and smearing his party leaders. I think probably the most naive thing he's said is about wanting a kinder, more respectful politics. Seems almost incompatible.

[Winslow Leach]

8 minutes ago, RichardWaller said:

What stuff did he have removed from speeches?

No, I don't think Momentum are representative, that much is abundantly obvious. And I don't think Momentum are the only people who voted him in either.

You say the "far left" is a coup, I say New Labour was. Labour are a party in disarray, I honestly have no idea what the party stands for anymore. I know I'd be putting it lightly to say Corbyn is a man who divides opinion, yes he's rebelled against his own leaders in the past (sometimes for good reason in my opinion, Iraq, tuition fees, Welfare Bill etc) but he's always done it respectfully. At least he hasn't been shouting to all and sundry and smearing his party leaders. I think probably the most naive thing he's said is about wanting a kinder, more respectful politics. Seems almost incompatible.

The single biggest problem with Corbyn isn't that he's left wing, or that he's rebelled in the past.

It's that he's shit.

He's shit on camera, he's shit in public, he's shit at PMQs, he's clearly shit at running a political party.  

[MadScientist]

Has anyone entered the post-brexit world yet? I'm nervous 

[RichardWaller]

8 minutes ago, Winslow Leach said:

The single biggest problem with Corbyn isn't that he's left wing, or that he's rebelled in the past.

It's that he's shit.

He's shit on camera, he's shit in public, he's shit at PMQs, he's clearly shit at running a political party.  

Hmm, I'd probably go more with too nice than shit. I agree he's probably not cut out but I think that's more a problem with politics overall than him. There's far too much nastiness, hypocrisy, self-interest, bigotry, deceit, cynicism and hatred in politics and he's getting a lot of that in his face. And I think it is damaging, I think it does put people off politics and prevent them from engaging. Maybe that's the point, I don't know.

[MadScientist]

13 minutes ago, Winslow Leach said:

The single biggest problem with Corbyn isn't that he's left wing, or that he's rebelled in the past.

It's that he's shit.

He's shit on camera, he's shit in public, he's shit at PMQs, he's clearly shit at running a political party.  

hundreds of thousands of people rallying behind him and joining the labour party to support him before his election as leader. hundreds of thousands of people gathered in London to show support against his coup the other day. He's clearly not a shit leader.

[Winslow Leach]

1 minute ago, MadScientist said:

hundreds of thousands of people rallying behind him and joining the labour party to support him before his election as leader. hundreds of thousands of people gathered in London to show support against his coup the other day. He's clearly not a shit leader.

News to me. The rally organisers claimed it was 10,000, and I highly doubt that number as well. The membership liking him as a person means he's a good leader how, exactly? 

 

9 minutes ago, RichardWaller said:

Hmm, I'd probably go more with too nice than shit. I agree he's probably not cut out but I think that's more a problem with politics overall than him. There's far too much nastiness, hypocrisy, self-interest, bigotry, deceit, cynicism and hatred in politics and he's getting a lot of that in his face. And I think it is damaging, I think it does put people off politics and prevent them from engaging. Maybe that's the point, I don't know.

I bought the 'he's a principled guy out of his depth' argument at first but I've lost all patience with it to be honest. Hiring people like Milne, that endless reshuffle, looking like he had as little interest in the referendum as it was possible for anyone to have, the seeming total lack of interest in actually being in power as a government.

I just don't know what he even wants anymore, and I suspect he doesn't either.

[arcade fireman]

4 hours ago, RichardWaller said:

Corbyn was Remain, he attended loads of rallies against a media blackout and you know I think if he'd spent the last three weeks shouting his heart out in stadiums up and down the country that wouldn't have been enough for some people. And yeah, you're right, he is mildly Eurosceptic too, I think in the Last Leg interview he said he was 7/10 in favour of Remain? So I'm not sure why people expect him to be full throttle. There were plenty of people more passionate and convincing, maybe his 7/10 would've undermined the Remain campaign.

You say comparing Labour and Tory voters is meaningless but then talk about the Eurosceptic voters Labour lost to UKIP at the last election - what has that got to do with Corbyn's leadership? Overall, the turnout was better than the last general election. I'd be interested to know more about the turnout of this or that demographic but we can never be conclusive about these things, hope people haven't been sticking their age and membership on their ballots... 

As others have said, Corbyns office repeatedly removed words from press releases to water down his support for the Remain camp. He refused to be a part of the Stronger In campaign. I saw more from Blair and Major than I did from Corbyn during this campaign. He didn't attend anywhere near as many campaign events as he should've done. Yes he was never the most enthusiastic Europhile but he had a responsibility to his voters who were largely very much for Remain. He has failed them completely. 

The point about Labour voters going to UKIP wasn't that this was Corbyns fault. It was that Labour have for the last generation been a pro-European party, as have most of their voters. However there was a big swing to UKIP at the last election from Labour voters, particularly in the North. This in turn would've meant those who voted Labour in 2015 were proportionally even more in favour of being in the EU as so many of the Eurosceptic Labour voters migrated to UKIP.

Therefore we shouldn't be praising Corbyn for getting 2/3rds of Labour voters to vote Remain. We should be asking why as many as a third voted to leave. 

I can't make a definite point on Labour turnout as I don't have proper figures on this. But turnout amongst the young was shockingly bad - 18-24 year olds was 43% and 25-34% was 54%. It would be wrong to blame Corbyn for this, but given these demographics are usually strongly Labour, I would argue it's likely Labour turnout wasn't great. I'm sure the figures for these will come in due course - post election polling is usually very accurate.

Edited June 28, 2016 by arcade fireman

[eastynh]

3 hours ago, DeanoL said:

I disagree. When democracy spoke in 2010 and delivered zero UKIP MPs and a pro-EU PM, the Brexiteers did not give up. When democracy spoke in 2015 and delivered just a single UKIP MP and the same pro-EU PM with a majority, the Brexiteers did not give up. In the week before the referendum when it looked like remain would win, Farage made it clear that a remain win of a few percentage points would have him calling for another referendum and not giving up.

But the minute the liberals get a slightly bloody nose we throw in the towel and pretend we're doing the honourable thing. So no, fuck the Brexiteers and the 52%, if they want out of the EU, they can sort it out. In the meantime, I'll make it as hard as possible for them in the hope they realise it's a stupid idea. Some already have.

As for Corbyn, he's a documented euro-skeptic, so delegated running the remain campaign to someone else (and why Alan Johnson is getting a free ride on all this, after running Labour's awful remain campaign I don't know) was not an horrendous idea. Though given Boris was able to lead the Leave campaign after being vocally pro EU until a few months before, it may have been the wrong call.

We lost so deal with it. Instead of getting on your high horse sit down and think why is the country so split and what can we do to bring ourselves together.

Why is it generally the poorer people of the nation who have voted to leave the EU? That in itself is telling. Many of these people do not usually vote because they believe they would just be replacing one lying dickhead with another. This was an issue where people believed their vote would actually count and so they have voted.

Democracy HAS won here and whether me and you like it or not, we should leave the EU. Just because the so called middle classes are not happy at the result, so what? We all have to live here and the majority have spoken.

Now I think there will be some tough times ahead but nowhere near as bad as the lying scremongers made out. We need to sort out the divisions in the country and move forward. This is an ideal opportunity to start from scratch. Our destiny is now in our own hands. Plus the politicians now answer to us. They can't blame it all on the EU and say their hands are tied.

[MoilyX]

1 hour ago, Ommadawn said:

And if we return to this thread in a year or two, we will be laughing at the doom-mongers and how wrong they were. 

Does your crystal ball also state how and why the doom-mongers will be wrong, by any chance?

[DeanoL]

32 minutes ago, eastynh said:

We lost so deal with it. 

Again, no. If Farage and his ilk had just accepted the result of democracy years ago, we would never have had a referendum. We'll never win if we give up while they always keep fighting.

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, MoilyX said:

Does your crystal ball also state how and why the doom-mongers will be wrong, by any chance?

Past events mainly. I don't know if you can remember 'Black Wednesday' in 1992. As a result of Britain pulling out of the ERM, the pound plummeted and the stock market crashed and the Government was forced to put interest rates up to 15%. The 'Headless Chickens' were flapping about then as well but the end of world didn't happen then and it won't now. What's needed is a period of calm and people saying that Britain is fucked etc are very wide of the mark.,

[arcade fireman]

Just now, Ommadawn said:

Past events mainly. I don't know if you can remember 'Black Wednesday' in 1992. As a result of Britain pulling out of the ERM, the pound plummeted and the stock market crashed and the Government was forced to put interest rates up to 15%. The 'Headless Chickens' were flapping about then as well but the end of world didn't happen then and it won't now. What's needed is a period of calm and people saying that Britain is fucked etc are very wide of the mark.,

Not really much of an indicator. Lehman Brothers collapsed and even most doom mongers didn't predict how bad things would get. There is a genuinely high chance the country will go into another recession. 

[Keithy]

1 hour ago, MadScientist said:

hundreds of thousands of people rallying behind him and joining the labour party to support him before his election as leader. hundreds of thousands of people gathered in London to show support against his coup the other day. He's clearly not a shit leader.

I think you'll find it was 2000ish organised members of Momentum and the SWP. It was hardly the broader labour membership spontaneously rallying to him.

The coup is Momentum and SWP taking over the party / reclaiming control (depending on your viewpoint) after the misthought Ed Milliband £3 membership changes. People thought it would be Tory infiltrators skewing the result but instead it was the organised hard left. Corbyn is not a shit leader, he's a cult leader. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, arcade fireman said:

Not really much of an indicator. Lehman Brothers collapsed and even most doom mongers didn't predict how bad things would get. There is a genuinely high chance the country will go into another recession. 

You don't know that (and neither do I for sure) but if it does, at least we will have control of our own destiny. The rest of the EU are shitting themselves hoping that other countries don't go the same route as Britain so they are acting tough but they will continue to trade with us because it's in their own interests to do so. When we were in the EU, do you really think France bought from us rather than from Germany for instance, simply because we were in the EU or because our goods were better value or better quality. I can't see that changing just because we're out.

[eastynh]

2 hours ago, Ommadawn said:

Why are you all arguing about party politics? The referendum gave people a rare chance to vote in or out regardless of their political views. The fact is that all the main political parties campaigned to remain (to a greater of lesser extent) and the majority of the people who voted, voted against that line. I very much doubt if it would have made much difference if Corbyn had whole-heartedly backed the 'Remain' line.   

 

2 hours ago, UEF said:

I've got to say, I really disliked the Artists' narrative of "After everything that's gone on, it's good to be in a place of tolerance rather than hate"... I'm sorry, but the Leave the EU vote was exactly that, a choice of who governs us, not a choice of hate. Thanks for slandering about half your audience.

We've got to get away from this notion of "cool" and "uncool" political positions. No wonder people are keeping quiet until the ballot box, there's far too much shaming going on.

 

26 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

Again, no. If Farage and his ilk had just accepted the result of democracy years ago, we would never have had a referendum. We'll never win if we give up while they always keep fighting.

I think the 2 posts I have quoted sum up everything I need to say. This vote had nothing to do with Farage, Corbyn, Johnson or Cameron as it was not party political. Do you think the people of Sunderland give a toss what any of them have to say? 

This was an in or out vote. Did the people of this country want to be in what is now a European super state? Did they want unelected bureaucrats deciding how they were to live their lives and telling them what to do? The answer is no and the will of the people should be respected. Remember we voted for a common market many years ago, not the current superstate which has emerged from it.

We will never win until we resolve the issues that exist between the rich and poor, that is the crux of the problem. You seem to want to fight for what is best for you, not what is best for the majority of us.

Us inners lost, it was a democratic vote and the majority of people voted to leave. That decision has to be respected otherwise we might well as be in Zimbabwe with Robert Mugabee. Now as much as I believe that there will be some hardship in leaving the EU, if we do not leave it then I will be on a plane to Australia at the first possible opportunity. there is no way I would tolerate living in a country than panders to the rich and well to do at the expense of the majority.

Edited June 28, 2016 by eastynh

[MoilyX]

18 minutes ago, Ommadawn said:

Past events mainly. I don't know if you can remember 'Black Wednesday' in 1992. As a result of Britain pulling out of the ERM, the pound plummeted and the stock market crashed and the Government was forced to put interest rates up to 15%. The 'Headless Chickens' were flapping about then as well but the end of world didn't happen then and it won't now. What's needed is a period of calm and people saying that Britain is fucked etc are very wide of the mark.,

I do, very well. This is so far removed from that particular event there are few similarities between the two.

Political turmoil of both main parties for one; a catastrophic decision by barely more than half of those who bothered to vote causing many ramifications to all parts of our society for another, make this a totally different ball game and not just a blip in the financial markets.

This is totally unprecedented. You can bury your head in the sand all you like and keep repeating that 'we have control of our destiny' but in reality we have lost control and we have lost a lot more as a country besides that.  

We are a poorer nation culturally, economically and politically as a result and we have no obvious way of rectifying that, and what's worse is that we have no obvious leader who can guide us out of this monumental shitshow.

 

[Winslow Leach]

5 minutes ago, Ommadawn said:

at least we will have control of our own destiny. 

Everyone: Don't step off that cliff!

Ommadawn: Don't tell me what to do. *Steps off cliff*

[arcade fireman]

27 minutes ago, Ommadawn said:

You don't know that (and neither do I for sure) but if it does, at least we will have control of our own destiny. The rest of the EU are shitting themselves hoping that other countries don't go the same route as Britain so they are acting tough but they will continue to trade with us because it's in their own interests to do so. When we were in the EU, do you really think France bought from us rather than from Germany for instance, simply because we were in the EU or because our goods were better value or better quality. I can't see that changing just because we're out.

There is a very good reason why Boris is pleading for us to stay part of the single market. It benefited is hugely in terms of trade, however the EU countries call the shots on this and have said we can't have it both ways. This was always going to happen. To say our trading relations will be unaffected is absolute rubbish and just one example of the uninformed nonsense people had in their heads when voting last week. 

We have control of our own destiny? Really? Last time I checked Murdoch and his gang won every single election in living memory. Our upper chamber is made up by unelected Lords handpicked by the major parties. At least we elect our MEPs. Our Parliamentary system has created an all or nothing scenario where the party who got 36% of the vote call all the shots. 

Edited June 28, 2016 by arcade fireman

[Mr.Tease]

2 hours ago, Winslow Leach said:

The single biggest problem with Corbyn isn't that he's left wing, or that he's rebelled in the past.

It's that he's shit.

He's shit on camera, he's shit in public, he's shit at PMQs, he's clearly shit at running a political party.  

Tom Watson and Angela Eagle are in discussions as to which of them is going to run against Corbyn. Can you honestly say they would be better than Corbyn? That's the whole issue that all these plotters are overlooking- the reason Corbyn won is because their candidates are far shitter!

[Guest]

Well, as I said in an earlier post, lets meet back here in 12 months time (assuming we still have electricity then of course) and see just how bad Brexit has been for Britain and whether it's been fucked as a result. Better make it during the day so we don't have to view the screen by gas light . Hopefully the 'Headless Chickens' will have stopped flapping by then.

[Mardy]

7 minutes ago, Ommadawn said:

Well, as I said in an earlier post, lets meet back here in 12 months time (assuming we still have electricity then of course) and see just how bad Brexit has been for Britain and whether it's been fucked as a result. Better make it during the day so we don't have to view the screen by gas light . Hopefully the 'Headless Chickens' will have stopped flapping by then.

There were three of us in our group at Glastonbury. One married to a Slovak, one with a Polish partner and i've got a Russian wife. This result means potentially huge personal difficulties and massive problems in our lives. Glad it's amusing for you.

[arcade fireman]

6 minutes ago, Ommadawn said:

Well, as I said in an earlier post, lets meet back here in 12 months time (assuming we still have electricity then of course) and see just how bad Brexit has been for Britain and whether it's been fucked as a result. Better make it during the day so we don't have to view the screen by gas light . Hopefully the 'Headless Chickens' will have stopped flapping by then.

- Sterling will be significantly lower than it was before the vote (and remember even then it's value was affected by the possibility of Brexit)

- Growth will have tailed off significantly with a high probability of us falling into recession

- Our Government will be significantly more right wing than it is now (though maybe you see that as a good thing). 

Of course this time next year Britain will still be an EU member even if article 50 is triggered tomorrow...

[Mardy]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/spate-of-racist-attacks-blamed-on-brexit-vote/

chucklesome stuff. Sure it's just headless chickens though, eh?

[arcade fireman]

28 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

Tom Watson and Angela Eagle are in discussions as to which of them is going to run against Corbyn. Can you honestly say they would be better than Corbyn? That's the whole issue that all these plotters are overlooking- the reason Corbyn won is because their candidates are far shitter!

Burnham would've been a much stronger leader from the last set. Not ideal but far better than Corbyn. 

Unfortunately Labour are hamstrung as many of the hundreds of thousands of people who voted for Corbyn and still maintain he's the best choice for leader seem to live in their own bubble. 

Edited June 28, 2016 by arcade fireman