Are we In or Out?

[Roger1]

RIghtly or wrongly there is at least half of the country totally disillusioned with the current state of UK politics. The remain campaign did nothing to reassure those people, spouting polictical BS and fear.

Farage and Co played said all the right things in a language that these people could connect with and offered a slightly postive outlook on the future.

The remain offered little positives in the campaign which was the biggest downfall I feel. The tone and feel of the remain campaign was almost condesending.

[eFestivals]

21 minutes ago, reflekting said:

Quite right across all points. I'd argue the key failure to provide a positive reason to remain in the EU, such as pointing at specific areas of investment such as in Ebbw Vale was the key failing as to why people felt disconnected from the union as a whole. 

Hmmmm.

If things had zoomed in on the facts of that, it would have merely highlighted that the EU used to gift such areas with significant money, but doesn't any more (its eastern Europe that gets the money instead).

It's quite possibly the fact of the EU 'removing' that money which caused them to vote how they have, because the UK govt is limited in what it's able to do with regeneration packages because of EU rules (and is precisely why the regeneration money for such places comes 'from the EU' and not the UK).

[MoilyX]

51 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

Because everyone voting remain had perfect thought behind their choice...?

 

I don't think anyone is alluding to that, but a vote for the status quo is far less damaging as it isn't irreversible and can be reviewed in the years to come.

A vote for Leave has very specific consequences and cannot be reversed so it is imperative that if you choose to vote Leave it should be for sound and logical reasons (note: multiple), without the subjectivity that UK politics unfortunately inspires.

A referendum on anything in this country is ultimately doomed as the divide across politics, education, upbringing and economical circumstances mean it will rarely be objectively held.

[rpfranks]

As much as I am still disgusted with the result, Leave were always going to mount a strong challenge for a couple of reasons.

1/ It's a change. Voting for something to change generally sparks more of a reaction than for things to stay as it is, whatever the topic. If we were to remain -- nothing was going to change to the ill-informed. We'd still stay in the EU, "they" would still have "our" jobs and the borders would still be "open". After all, leave arguments only tend to come down to that, which ever way you look at it. 

2/ The blasé attitude from so many leave voters was like they thought, "well it can't get any worse" and that's what swung it for them. A really good way of deciding which side to vote was: If you're on the fence, vote Remain, but if you want to gamble, vote Leave. If someone had not a lot going for them and no care for the younger generations then you would probably understand why someone would vote Leave -- unfortunately our country is populated with a lot of people having this stance. Statistics show that those more well off were more likely to vote remain. So unfortunately the millions of poorer people, in a fairly selfish way, voted to leave because they thought they'd have more chance of a better future with less non-British people in the country. Not to mention the lies which spiralled out of control; £350m pw to the NHS (now turned out to be £100m or less, if that), fishermen having their quotas upped and so forth.

Now we've seen the two most vocal politicians spearheading the Leave campaign resign or shirk away from any form of responsibility, I'm pretty sure that they didn't realise quite what it is they've actually caused. It's like they didn't expect to win and didn't have any form of contingency plan for the immediate aftermath.

Yes, Farage originally set out to gain UK independence and he's seemingly achieved that, but why run away when the hard work hasn't even started yet. My suspicion is that he will get a well-paid job from a company set to benefit from Brexit, and will return once all the hard work is done to inevitably shaft the country once more with his xenophobic agendas.

Now I wouldn't exactly say I'm well off but what I did do was vote Remain.

Because I work in and have many friends in the music industry, could foresee the shitstorm that's starting to kick off and I quite like having the freedom and benefits of health care and being able to travel around the EU as and when I please.

Brexit has already impacted me. A small impact would be the fact that I'm going to Spain next week and the pound vs Euro is struggling. A longer term impact is that a lot of the bands I work with have now decided to stall on whether they will tour the uk or head abroad in the near future as they wait to see the financial impacts of the UK leaving the EU. I had some good tours and shows lined up but now this will have to wait and potentially cause an impact to both my and the bands' earnings.

So while I'm all for a democratic country, I am still struggling to come to terms with the result and the long term impact it may have on the industry I and many of my friends work in...

I'm just glad I was somewhere like Glastonbury when the news broke. Couldn't think of anywhere else I'd rather be that Friday morning.

[eFestivals]

13 minutes ago, MoilyX said:

I don't think anyone is alluding to that, but a vote for the status quo is far less damaging as it isn't irreversible and can be reviewed in the years to come.

if a vote for the status quo isn't irreversible but changing the status quo isn't acceptable, what can ever be deliberately changed about this?

I don't think a line like that leads us to anything with more clarity or with greater intelligence - or with greater democracy (but definitely the opposite of that) - its merely about trying to stop a change that isn't personally liked.

 

13 minutes ago, MoilyX said:

A vote for Leave has very specific consequences and cannot be reversed so it is imperative that if you choose to vote Leave it should be for sound and logical reasons (note: multiple), without the subjectivity that UK politics unfortunately inspires.

it can never be anything but a decision formed via subjectivity.

You're fooling yourself in believing there's an objective choice. Yes, there's consequences from leaving, but there's also consequences from staying, and a person's opinion about which is the better is entirely subjective.

Trying to claim the higher moral ground with pertinent bollocks is far more stupid than any leaver's vote.

 

13 minutes ago, MoilyX said:

A referendum on anything in this country is ultimately doomed as the divide across politics, education, upbringing and economical circumstances mean it will rarely be objectively held.

All politics is subjective, and all political decisions leave those on the losing side of the argument isolated.

That's just how it is, and some people are finding out for the first time what it's like to be on the losing side. The shocking thing about it is how they believe they never should be.

 

 

[russycarps]

I'm all for democracy until people vote against my way of thinking. Then I start believing in dictatorships, provided I am the dictator.

 

 

Edited July 5, 2016 by russycarps

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, russycarps said:

I'm all for democracy until people vote against my way of thinking. Then I start believing in dictatorships, provided I am the dictator.

Don't we all?

The thing is, if we go with that line, we also give the likes of Farage and his supporters the right to also go with that line. It doesn't lead anywhere better.

[russycarps]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

Don't we all?

The thing is, if we go with that line, we also give the likes of Farage and his supporters the right to also go with that line. It doesn't lead anywhere better.

Yep I agree with you. But it's just human nature isnt it? I dont think you can really blame people for thinking like this. It's incredibly difficult to accept "wrong" decisions and just move on (and the weight of evidence suggests that this decision is "wrong"). 

It's like when you hear people say "guide ropes" at glastonbury...can you walk on by without correcting them??

 

 

[reflekting]

21 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Hmmmm.

If things had zoomed in on the facts of that, it would have merely highlighted that the EU used to gift such areas with significant money, but doesn't any more (its eastern Europe that gets the money instead).

It's quite possibly the fact of the EU 'removing' that money which caused them to vote how they have, because the UK govt is limited in what it's able to do with regeneration packages because of EU rules (and is precisely why the regeneration money for such places comes 'from the EU' and not the UK).

I'd be skeptical if the Tory government would spend any kind of money outside of it's key obligations i.e. defence and education (and even they are subject to severe cuts); even more so in an area of the country which likely has few Tory supporters. 

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, reflekting said:

I'd be skeptical if the Tory government would spend any kind of money outside of it's key obligations i.e. defence and education (and even they are subject to severe cuts); even more so in an area of the country which likely has few Tory supporters. 

Despite your scepticism, the facts prove you wrong.

Thatcher spent more on regeneration (before subsidies were transferred to the EU) than the EU has done within the UK.

There's the same likelihood of regeneration projects disappearing as there is for farm subsidies - and no one thinks the farm subsidies are going.

[DeanoL]

44 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Despite your scepticism, the facts prove you wrong.

Thatcher spent more on regeneration (before subsidies were transferred to the EU) than the EU has done within the UK.

There's the same likelihood of regeneration projects disappearing as there is for farm subsidies - and no one thinks the farm subsidies are going.

Probably not. Not yet at least. But a new agricultural policy will be needed and will be discussed and debated and there will be people proposing a New Zealand style zero-subsidy model. I don't see it happening but at this point everything is on the table.

[eFestivals]

43 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

Probably not. Not yet at least. But a new agricultural policy will be needed and will be discussed and debated and there will be people proposing a New Zealand style zero-subsidy model. I don't see it happening but at this point everything is on the table.

Yep, there might be a new model, just as there might be a new model for regeneration.

There's very good justification for a stronger model of regeneration too, given how the EU's model has actually served the UK poorly for the last 12 years (since the accession of the eastern EU members).

Unlike with farming, where there's little justification for a stronger model, but a lot for a weaker one. We need to stop paying farmers to *not* produce on their productive land (especially with a falling pound).

We might not like what the tories might do, but they'll do much worse if they have to pay no attention to public opinion as you're suggesting for a much bigger issue.

[grumpyhack]

We're going on a big family to Portugal in August, which we have to pay for in Euros and the cost has risen significantly with the plunge of the pound.  There will be 14 of us going and only one voted out, so tonight we agreed that he should pay the difference as punishment.

[Tyonks]

On 05/07/2016 at 0:48 PM, russycarps said:

I'm all for democracy until people vote against my way of thinking. Then I start believing in dictatorships, provided I am the dictator.

 

 

Wanted to like this, but ran out of up votes, feel a lot of young left wing people have betrayed their own political leanings since the EU ref result and in my opinion during the vote itself.

The "elites" and the "1%" have been dealt serious body blow after serious body blow since the leave vote and the political classes are in turmoil, i'm surprised the left wing isn't rejoicing and dancing in the streets. 

Edited July 6, 2016 by Tyonks

[DeanoL]

1 hour ago, Tyonks said:

Wanted to like this, but ran out of up votes, feel a lot of young left wing people have betrayed their own political leanings since the EU ref result and in my opinion during the vote itself.

The "elites" and the "1%" have been dealt serious body blow after serious body blow since the leave vote and the political classes are in turmoil, i'm surprised the left wing isn't rejoicing and dancing in the streets. 

Yeah it's almost like some people have genuine deeply held beliefs around freedom of movement and global cooperation and aren't just in it to kick Tories.

[Tyonks]

3 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

Yeah it's almost like some people have genuine deeply held beliefs around freedom of movement and global cooperation and aren't just in it to kick Tories.

Yea I suppose the EU succeeded in co-operating with Greece last year after their own referendum and forced severe austerity measure on the country despite the will of 61% people who voted. Freedom of movement has also worked exceedingly well especially when some of the Balkan countries erected fences across their borders to stop well, free movement 

i Suppose at least we can vote for a new President of the EU at the next election .... oh wait. 

[eFestivals]

7 hours ago, Tyonks said:

Wanted to like this, but ran out of up votes, feel a lot of young left wing people have betrayed their own political leanings since the EU ref result and in my opinion during the vote itself.

The "elites" and the "1%" have been dealt serious body blow after serious body blow since the leave vote and the political classes are in turmoil, i'm surprised the left wing isn't rejoicing and dancing in the streets. 

erm .... it's not the "elites" or "the 1%" who are the ones going to be living a shit life as a result of the vote.

Did that pass you by? If it has up till now, it definitely won't in the future.

 

[eFestivals]

5 hours ago, Tyonks said:

Yea I suppose the EU succeeded in co-operating with Greece last year after their own referendum and forced severe austerity measure on the country despite the will of 61% people who voted.

No they didn't.

Greece is able to spend as much money on public services as it has.

What's that? It doesn't have any money? Yeah, I know. Which is precisely why there was nothing forced on Greece.

How many people do you know who give you their money because you'd prefer to spend more than just your own money? And why do you think it works any differently for countries?

 

Quote

Freedom of movement has also worked exceedingly well especially when some of the Balkan countries erected fences across their borders to stop well, free movement 

Who's the numptie who doesn't understand that free movement applies to EU citizens only and nothing of that free movement was altered?

 

Quote

i Suppose at least we can vote for a new President of the EU at the next election .... oh wait. 

I suppose at least we can vote for the new PM of the UK ... oh wait .... we can't vote for them right now, and we can't vote for them at the next election (unless you happen to have the relevant person as your MP).

British democracy is the best in the world, and definitely better than the EUs.

Edited July 7, 2016 by eFestivals

[DeanoL]

8 hours ago, Tyonks said:

Yea I suppose the EU succeeded in co-operating with Greece last year after their own referendum and forced severe austerity measure on the country despite the will of 61% people who voted. Freedom of movement has also worked exceedingly well especially when some of the Balkan countries erected fences across their borders to stop well, free movement 

i Suppose at least we can vote for a new President of the EU at the next election .... oh wait. 

Yeah - the EU bailed out Greece rather than let them default. Is that not cooperation?

But you're right, it's a hard thing to do, and the EU isn't great at it but it's still better than it was when the EU didn't exist.

[Lad]

Co-operation with Greece?It  was the lying ,manic decision to cook the books that got them into the crap in the first place.Cheered on by the fanatic pro EU Greek establishment. 

[DeanoL]

16 minutes ago, Lad said:

Co-operation with Greece?It  was the lying ,manic decision to cook the books that got them into the crap in the first place.Cheered on by the fanatic pro EU Greek establishment. 

Yep. So based on that, do you think the Greek government needs more oversight or less oversight?

[eFestivals]

16 minutes ago, Lad said:

Co-operation with Greece?It  was the lying ,manic decision to cook the books that got them into the crap in the first place.Cheered on by the fanatic pro EU Greek establishment. 

It was all done by Greece to Greece. Greece bankrupting itself was fuck all to do with the EU.

But don't let the facts get in the way of anything.

 

[Lad]

10 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

It was all done by Greece to Greece. Greece bankrupting itself was fuck all to do with the EU.

But don't let the facts get in the way of anything.

 

Best you read up on the euro.It's probably just a coincidence that the fraudsters were fanatic EU cheerleaders.They mustn't have wanted to play their part in the project.I know you won't hear a bad word about Goldman Sachs,snigger,but they cooked the books.You still maintaining was nothing to do with the EU project is ludicrous.The knowledge about the EU outside the snowflake bubble is pitiful.Tbh not having a go at you for that cos you're one of the small number who at least tries.Mostly wrong but tries.Worth reading ex ECB economist Issing on the cheating.You've got to understand that they were all in it together.

[DeanoL]

7 minutes ago, Lad said:

Best you read up on the euro.It's probably just a coincidence that the fraudsters were fanatic EU cheerleaders.They mustn't have wanted to play their part in the project.I know you won't hear a bad word about Goldman Sachs,snigger,but they cooked the books.You still maintaining was nothing to do with the EU project is ludicrous.The knowledge about the EU outside the snowflake bubble is pitiful.Tbh not having a go at you for that cos you're one of the small number who at least tries.Mostly wrong but tries.Worth reading ex ECB economist Issing on the cheating.You've got to understand that they were all in it together.

Goldman Sachs cooked the books to get Greece into the Euro. You could maybe argue that the EU should have looked more carefully and spotted it, but that's like going to a restaurant, demanding they serve you human shit, eating it, getting sick, then complaining to the health and safety authorities that the restaurant were allowed to serve you human shit.

[eFestivals]

42 minutes ago, Lad said:

Best you read up on the euro.It's probably just a coincidence that the fraudsters were fanatic EU cheerleaders.They mustn't have wanted to play their part in the project.I know you won't hear a bad word about Goldman Sachs,snigger,but they cooked the books.You still maintaining was nothing to do with the EU project is ludicrous.The knowledge about the EU outside the snowflake bubble is pitiful.Tbh not having a go at you for that cos you're one of the small number who at least tries.Mostly wrong but tries.Worth reading ex ECB economist Issing on the cheating.You've got to understand that they were all in it together.

we've been thru this, and you can't provide a jot of proof to back up your claims, remember?

And that's because your claims do not match the facts.