Football 16-17

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, big__phil said:

The biggest single problem is having an owner who doesn't give a fuck about sporting success

Hmmm. If he 'cared more' I suspect you'd be complaining that he was interfering with the team.

From one angle i get the frustration, but the complaints are about what might be rightfully thought of as the best-run club in the UK over the last 20 years.

It's fair enough thinking that perhaps Wenger's time has been and gone again, but when you also say stuff like the above it all adds up to no sense at all, because changing the manager isn't going to bring sporting success is the owner doesn't give a fuck about sporting success as you say. You'd need the owner out first for it to make a difference.

 

9 minutes ago, big__phil said:

The fans pay the most money in Europe for a season ticket, so I think they're perfectly justified to voice their concerns with the way the club is run, both on and off the pitch.

The fans pay the most money in Europe so i think they're perfectly entitled to win the most too.

At bang for buck, the likes of League One and downwards are paying waaaaay more.

[big__phil]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

From one angle i get the frustration, but the complaints are about what might be rightfully thought of as the best-run club in the UK over the last 20 years.

Listen, what Wenger did during the early-Emirates years was nothing short of miraculous. The business-side of the club is doing pretty well, but not as well as it used to be. The naming rights on the stadium were tied in for far too long, and these deals now don't look as good as they did at the time, and we've been overtaken by our rivals.

There are big problems with our academy, youth teams, medical department (although these have improved somewhat) and scouting.

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

It's fair enough thinking that perhaps Wenger's time has been and gone again, but when you also say stuff like the above it all adds up to no sense at all, because changing the manager isn't going to bring sporting success is the owner doesn't give a fuck about sporting success as you say. You'd need the owner out first for it to make a difference.

Perhaps not, but is not changing the manager going to improve things? Of course not. Doing nothing is the easy option, and that's not good enough.

9 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

At bang for buck, the likes of League One and downwards are paying waaaaay more.

Well we're not getting too much bang at the moment, unless you count the goals we conceed away from home these days.

[CRW5252]

10 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Hmmm. If he 'cared more' I suspect you'd be complaining that he was interfering with the team.

From one angle i get the frustration, but the complaints are about what might be rightfully thought of as the best-run club in the UK over the last 20 years.

It's fair enough thinking that perhaps Wenger's time has been and gone again, but when you also say stuff like the above it all adds up to no sense at all, because changing the manager isn't going to bring sporting success is the owner doesn't give a fuck about sporting success as you say. You'd need the owner out first for it to make a difference.

 

The fans pay the most money in Europe so i think they're perfectly entitled to win the most too.

At bang for buck, the likes of League One and downwards are paying waaaaay more.

If you have two main problems (Wenger and the board) getting rid of one of them will help somewhat. At the moment Wenger leaving looks considerably more likely than the board changing hence why there is more of a push from Arsenal fans to change Wenger.

It's not outrageous to expect to a higher quality product when you pay premium for it. Why should football tickets be any different?

[eFestivals]

Just now, CRW5252 said:

If you have two main problems (Wenger and the board) getting rid of one of them will help somewhat. At the moment Wenger leaving looks considerably more likely than the board changing hence why there is more of a push from Arsenal fans to change Wenger.

Will it? Is the grass definitely greener over there?

 

Just now, CRW5252 said:

It's not outrageous to expect to a higher quality product when you pay premium for it. Why should football tickets be any different?

 - I dunno where to start with that.

In simple terms, football is not your normal commodity.

[CRW5252]

Just now, eFestivals said:

Will it? Is the grass definitely greener over there?

 

 - I dunno where to start with that.

In simple terms, football is not your normal commodity.

Can it actually get much worse at this point? Any decent manager would be able to get Arsenal to finish where we are atm. Koeman has a considerably worse squad available to him and has managed to get Everton equal on points with us. He's one of a few good candidates for the job. 

Please explain, I'm interested  

[mjsell]

7 minutes ago, CRW5252 said:

Can it actually get much worse at this point?

http://www.espnfc.co.uk/english-premier-league/23/video/3088640/save-the-gunners-join-our-cause

 

 

Edited April 11, 2017 by mjsell

[The Nal]

 

[CRW5252]

2 minutes ago, mjsell said:

http://www.espnfc.co.uk/english-premier-league/23/video/3088640/save-the-gunners-join-our-cause

 

 

hahaha, I feel for them too but I think the expectations of each club might differ just a little

[pink_triangle]

7 hours ago, big__phil said:

I have to disagree with him staying on for another season. What does that say about the ambition of the club? He is really struggling to get any performance out of these players at the moment, and I don't see that changing next year. Sure, we might have the odd good result here and there, but that's not good enough, and shouldn't be accepted as such.

Arsenals results are not massively out of line with a club who holds the 4th biggest budget in a league. If Arsenal want to win league titles it probably comes from spending more money more than changing the manager.

[Wooderson]

Becoming a fan of a footie team is like any investment. Value goes up aswell as down. I don't think Arsenal have taken a step back so much as other clubs have gone past them. I hope yis really struggle in the next few years. Soz.

Edited April 11, 2017 by Wooderson

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, Wooderson said:

I don't think Arsenal have taken a step back so much as other clubs have gone past them.

This. ^

1 hour ago, CRW5252 said:

Can it actually get much worse at this point?

Take a look at the future for these.

The success of your football club may go down as well as up.

 

1 hour ago, CRW5252 said:

Any decent manager would be able to get Arsenal to finish where we are atm.

Like any decent manager could have Utd qualify for the top 4?

I don't necessarily disagree, tho are those players under-performing? Nope, not particularly, when you look at the players in the teams around them. They're perhaps having a less-good season than the norm, but, you know, form and confidence varies a little sometimes.

 

1 hour ago, CRW5252 said:

Koeman has a considerably worse squad available to him and has managed to get Everton equal on points with us. He's one of a few good candidates for the job. 

Please explain, I'm interested  

Yep, that's him got them over-performing, tho whether it's a one-season wonder (like Arsenal's dip might be) we've yet to see.

Meanwhile, the self anointed best manager in the world has spent a shedload of cash on crap and is in about the same place as Arsenal.

Which sort-of suggests Wenger has Arsenal around where they should be, while Everton over-perform (it happens) and Utd under-perform (it happens).

They've dropped off from other teams a little this year, but it's about as far away from disasterous as you could get, and nothing that a normal summer's spending couldn't address. It's then down to getting hits with those buys, and every manager's record is flakey.

[CRW5252]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

This. ^

Take a look at the future for these.

The success of your football club may go down as well as up.

 

Like any decent manager could have Utd qualify for the top 4?

I don't necessarily disagree, tho are those players under-performing? Nope, not particularly, when you look at the players in the teams around them. They're perhaps having a less-good season than the norm, but, you know, form and confidence varies a little sometimes.

 

Yep, that's him got them over-performing, tho whether it's a one-season wonder (like Arsenal's dip might be) we've yet to see.

Meanwhile, the self anointed best manager in the world has spent a shedload of cash on crap and is in about the same place as Arsenal.

Which sort-of suggests Wenger has Arsenal around where they should be, while Everton over-perform (it happens) and Utd under-perform (it happens).

They've dropped off from other teams a little this year, but it's about as far away from disasterous as you could get, and nothing that a normal summer's spending couldn't address. It's then down to getting hits with those buys, and every manager's record is flakey.

I still don't think you understand why Arsenal fans are frustrated. 'Arsenal's dip' has been for about 10 years. We are not protesting purely about the results at the moment. It is frustration that has built up after years of broken promises (from Wenger and the board). We have gone from one of the best clubs in the world to not even being in the top 20. 

[Wooderson]

Define "one of the best clubs in the world".

[CRW5252]

59 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Arsenals results are not massively out of line with a club who holds the 4th biggest budget in a league. If Arsenal want to win league titles it probably comes from spending more money more than changing the manager.

Budget is of course an important part of where a team finishes but it is not the only factor. I don't think anyone can say Wenger has spent his budget well in the last few seasons. 

[CRW5252]

1 minute ago, Wooderson said:

Define "one of the best clubs in the world".

Competing at the very top. Champions league finals, league titles, unbeaten seasons

[TheGayTent]

It's all about recent history and expectation isn't it? 

Between 1960 and 1970 the highest Arsenal finished in the league was 4th, and of course in those days, 4th didn't equate to a European Cup place. In half of those seasons, Arsenal finished 10th or lower. They also didn't win a Cup competition. 

I suspect supporters of the time would be a lot happier with the last 10 years than Arsenal fans who struggle to remember pre Wenger years. 

That's not to say I don't appreciate there are valid reasons why Arsenal supporters want to see change, just offering some perspective perhaps? 

[Wooderson]

4 minutes ago, CRW5252 said:

Competing at the very top. Champions league finals, league titles, unbeaten seasons

I would say *all of that* is down to the man you are now seeking to bin off. As Neil mentioned, your club's consistency is its strength. There are few titles in the above. Yet to win a European Cup. 

Yet - Clubs like LFC and Spurs (ish) crave what Wenger has created. To see what happens if the fans get their wish and he's sacked will be fascinating.

 

 

[TheGayTent]

Reports around that the Dortmund team bus has suffered some kind of explosion with 1 person injured? 

[Wooderson]

How can that game go ahead?

[CRW5252]

2 minutes ago, TheGayTent said:

It's all about recent history and expectation isn't it? 

Between 1960 and 1970 the highest Arsenal finished in the league was 4th, and of course in those days, 4th didn't equate to a European Cup place. In half of those seasons, Arsenal finished 10th or lower. They also didn't win a Cup competition. 

I suspect supporters of the time would be a lot happier with the last 10 years than Arsenal fans who struggle to remember pre Wenger years. 

That's not to say I don't appreciate there are valid reasons why Arsenal supporters want to see change, just offering some perspective perhaps? 

 

1 minute ago, Wooderson said:

I would say *all of that* is down to the man you are now seeking to bin off. As Neil mentioned, your club's consistency is its strength. There are few titles in the above. Yet to win a European Cup. 

Yet - Clubs like LFC and Spurs (ish) crave what Wenger has created. To see what happens if the fans get their wish and he's sacked will be fascinating.

 

 

He's been an absolutely brilliant manager for us. I don't think many Arsenal fans will disagree with that but just like players, managers eventually lose their ability. 

[CRW5252]

1 minute ago, Wooderson said:

How can that game go ahead?

I guess it will depend what caused it 

[CRW5252]

Just now, CRW5252 said:

I guess it will depend what caused it 

Don't worry, just saw that it was a bomb :/

[pink_triangle]

6 hours ago, CRW5252 said:

If Wenger stays it will be for two years as that is the contract on the table.  

Say Allegri has promised to take the job in 2018/2019 it would make perfect sense to give Wenger a 2 year deal. City did something similar with Pelligrini despite knowing he wouldn't be there the whole time.

 

6 hours ago, big__phil said:

Wilshire had a run of 6 man of the match performances out of 7 games he played for England a couple of years back, playing in a deeper role. I personally think that's his best role, but Howe doesn't seem to agree and plays him in the no 10 role. He's not even a guaranteed starter for Bournemouth any more, so god knows what his future holds.

I think his performances were being overegged by a media looking to coronation the next big thing. Look at his performance against Barcelona as a perfect example.

 

3 hours ago, CRW5252 said:

The fans only became toxic when it was evident that the players couldn't be bothered. It might not benefit the team at the time but ultimately it will in the end as it lets the players and the managers know they need to sort themselves out. Us fans have been patient for years and we keep getting told we will be competing at the top but it never shows on the pitch. Saying 'knuckle down and support the team' shows your ignorance to what's happening at Arsenal. This season would be forgivable if it was a one-off but it has been the exact same for over 10 years now. 

I think talk about players not being bothered is lazy analysis. Sometimes players/teams just have bad seasons. I have no doubt Arsenal players go into every game wanting to win. Arsenal have regressed in the last 10 years, however the main factor in my view is the fact that 2 clubs (city and Chelsea) have outspent them, rather than passion or effort.

 

2 hours ago, CRW5252 said:

Can it actually get much worse at this point? Any decent manager would be able to get Arsenal to finish where we are atm. Koeman has a considerably worse squad available to him and has managed to get Everton equal on points with us. He's one of a few good candidates for the job. 

Please explain, I'm interested  

Koeman may have a team level with Arsenal this season, doesn't mean he has in the past, or will in the future. Arsenal are having a poor season, so are many other clubs in the football pyramid. Man Utd fans thought post Fergie there may be a regression, but I don't think any predicted how tough even getting top 4 would be.

[pink_triangle]

6 hours ago, CRW5252 said:

If Wenger stays it will be for two years as that is the contract on the table.  

Say Allegri has promised to take the job in 2018/2019 it would make perfect sense to give Wenger a 2 year deal. City did something similar with Pelligrini despite knowing he wouldn't be there the whole time.

 

6 hours ago, big__phil said:

Wilshire had a run of 6 man of the match performances out of 7 games he played for England a couple of years back, playing in a deeper role. I personally think that's his best role, but Howe doesn't seem to agree and plays him in the no 10 role. He's not even a guaranteed starter for Bournemouth any more, so god knows what his future holds.

I think his performances were being overegged by a media looking to coronation the next big thing. Look at his performance against Barcelona as a perfect example.

 

3 hours ago, CRW5252 said:

The fans only became toxic when it was evident that the players couldn't be bothered. It might not benefit the team at the time but ultimately it will in the end as it lets the players and the managers know they need to sort themselves out. Us fans have been patient for years and we keep getting told we will be competing at the top but it never shows on the pitch. Saying 'knuckle down and support the team' shows your ignorance to what's happening at Arsenal. This season would be forgivable if it was a one-off but it has been the exact same for over 10 years now. 

I think talk about players not being bothered is lazy analysis. Sometimes players/teams just have bad seasons. I have no doubt Arsenal players go into every game wanting to win. Arsenal have regressed in the last 10 years, however the main factor in my view is the fact that 2 clubs (city and Chelsea) have outspent them, rather than passion or effort.

 

2 hours ago, CRW5252 said:

Can it actually get much worse at this point? Any decent manager would be able to get Arsenal to finish where we are atm. Koeman has a considerably worse squad available to him and has managed to get Everton equal on points with us. He's one of a few good candidates for the job. 

Please explain, I'm interested  

Koeman may have a team level with Arsenal this season, doesn't mean he has in the past, or will in the future. Arsenal are having a poor season, so are many other clubs in the football pyramid. Man Utd fans thought post Fergie there may be a regression, but I don't think any predicted how tough even getting top 4 would be.

[CRW5252]

Just now, pink_triangle said:

Say Allegri has promised to take the job in 2018/2019 it would make perfect sense to give Wenger a 2 year deal. City did something similar with Pelligrini despite knowing he wouldn't be there the whole time.

Surely he would have already signed if that was the case but I agree if that is actually something in place. 

1 minute ago, pink_triangle said:

I think talk about players not being bothered is lazy analysis. Sometimes players/teams just have bad seasons. I have no doubt Arsenal players go into every game wanting to win. Arsenal have regressed in the last 10 years, however the main factor in my view is the fact that 2 clubs (city and Chelsea) have outspent them, rather than passion or effort.

Of course they want to win but are they willing to fight for it? Not that I can see. I never said our main problem in the last 10 years was a lack of passion or effort.

3 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Koeman may have a team level with Arsenal this season, doesn't mean he has in the past, or will in the future. Arsenal are having a poor season, so are many other clubs in the football pyramid. Man Utd fans thought post Fergie there may be a regression, but I don't think any predicted how tough even getting top 4 would be.

 Koeman did very well at Southampton and has been great at Everton so far so it's a fair bet to say he'll do well in the future. Again, you are talking like this season is an isolated 'blip' for Arsenal. It's been the same thing for years