Football 16-17

[CRW5252]

15 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Yet with all the changes he has still maintained finishes in relation to spending.

There is more to it than just our final league finish. Our final league position, as a statistic, doesn't actually show what happened in the season. It doesn't show the consistent mistakes that Wenger makes year after year. Also, separate from the league, we have not competed in the CL for years and have only won 2 trophies in 12 years. 

[Wooderson]

Kante to win player of the year, both varieties.

[pink_triangle]

1 hour ago, CRW5252 said:

There is more to it than just our final league finish. Our final league position, as a statistic, doesn't actually show what happened in the season. It doesn't show the consistent mistakes that Wenger makes year after year. Also, separate from the league, we have not competed in the CL for years and have only won 2 trophies in 12 years. 

It's the statistic that decides who gets the gold and who gets the champions league places. Arsenal have certainly been disappointing in Europe, but there has also been a general fall back throughout the English teams. As I have said I have no doubt Arsenal would have won more if 2 wealthy men hadn't decided to bankroll 2 teams.

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, CRW5252 said:

Tottenham have consistently picked out top players in the last few years so there is clearly more to it than luck. I'm baffled that some of you think like that. Is it pure luck that Barcelona always get top players through their youth acedemy? Of fucking course not. 

Tottenham have also had hundreds of failures to get those few - and probably average about the same with their failures and successes as other clubs

Why do you only recognise the successes but ignore the huge number more who were failures? The failures are as relevant as the successes.

If Spurs are doing it particularly well - I've no idea if they are or not - then their average for successes will be better than other clubs, but even then their average will only be a little bit better, because they all get thru shit loads of players to get a few gems.

It's much more a numbers game than it is about being able to absolutely recognise who will go on to be the successes at the point they're chosen to go on a club's books. 

That numbers game is because the clubs themselves know it's luck. They do high numbers to average out the luck to ensure they'll get some successes rather than perhaps none at all.

[pink_triangle]

17 minutes ago, Wooderson said:

Kante to win player of the year, both varieties.

Young player of the season is a stupid award. It's mad that they count a 23 year old as young in the modern game.

[mjsell]

How is Alli not in the shortlist? Mental. He's very unlucky not to be in there

[Wooderson]

15 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Young player of the season is a stupid award. It's mad that they count a 23 year old as young in the modern game.

I was referring to press/player's player awards.

[CRW5252]

36 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

As I have said I have no doubt Arsenal would have won more if 2 wealthy men hadn't decided to bankroll 2 teams.

I can't disagree with that but that doesn't excuse Wenger's/the boards failings in the last few years

[eFestivals]

Just now, CRW5252 said:

I can't disagree with that but that doesn't excuse Wenger's/the boards failings in the last few years

so what you're saying is that they'll stop failing when Arsenal gets bankrolled like Chelsea and City.

Good luck at getting those geezers to open their wallets because you say so and not because they want to.

[CRW5252]

34 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Tottenham have also had hundreds of failures to get those few - and probably average about the same with their failures and successes as other clubs

Why do you only recognise the successes but ignore the huge number more who were failures? The failures are as relevant as the successes.

If Spurs are doing it particularly well - I've no idea if they are or not - then their average for successes will be better than other clubs, but even then their average will only be a little bit better, because they all get thru shit loads of players to get a few gems.

It's much more a numbers game than it is about being able to absolutely recognise who will go on to be the successes at the point they're chosen to go on a club's books. 

That numbers game is because the clubs themselves know it's luck. They do high numbers to average out the luck to ensure they'll get some successes rather than perhaps none at all.

I don't only recognize the successes. Of course there are plenty of players who don't make it through and their is aspects of luck involved but to say it's completely down to luck is ridiculous. 

[CRW5252]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

so what you're saying is that they'll stop failing when Arsenal gets bankrolled like Chelsea and City.

Good luck at getting those geezers to open their wallets because you say so and not because they want to.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. Wenger has repeated the same mistakes year after year. Arsenal fans aren't the only people who say this. Our shocking amount of injuries and March meltdowns happen nearly every year 

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, CRW5252 said:

I don't only recognize the successes. Of course there are plenty of players who don't make it through and their is aspects of luck involved but to say it's completely down to luck is ridiculous. 

what's ridiculous is you putting words in my mouth I never said, and you picking an argument with someone you're agreeing with.

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, CRW5252 said:

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. Wenger has repeated the same mistakes year after year. Arsenal fans aren't the only people who say this. Our shocking amount of injuries and March meltdowns happen nearly every year 

yep, there's numpties who aren't Arsenal fans too.

[CRW5252]

23 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

what's ridiculous is you putting words in my mouth I never said, and you picking an argument with someone you're agreeing with.

Lol, you have done the exact same with me. Most recently being about 20 minutes ago. 

You said 'Spurs, who've got lucky via having a couple of excellent players', in the context that was wrote it sounded like you were saying that their success has been purely down to the 'luck' they have had with players like Alli and Kane. I wasn't the only person who construed it in that way. 

22 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

yep, there's numpties who aren't Arsenal fans too.

Or people that understand that for a club like Arsenal 2 trophies in 12 years is not good enough. No top 20 club would put up with such a poor return. I can forgive the first 6-7 years after the stadium move as it was clear we were in a difficult financial situation but we were promised we would be competing with Bayern Munich by now. We aren't even close. 

Edited April 13, 2017 by CRW5252

[pink_triangle]

12 minutes ago, CRW5252 said:

 

Or people that understand that for a club like Arsenal 2 trophies in 12 years is not good enough. No other top 20 club would put up with such a poor return. I can forgive the first 6-7 years after the stadium move as it was clear we were in a difficult financial situation but we were promised we would be competing with Bayern Munich by now. We aren't even close. 

What's a club like Arsenal? Football is cyclical and others are having their turn, I think football is better for not having Arsenal and Man U trade trophies. Arsenals tradition means very little if a Sheikh comes to city and pumps money in.

I don't see how you can lump top 20 clubs together as domestic circumstances are so varied. It's clearly easier for the likes of Juventus, PSG, Bayern to win domestic tournaments when they don't have teams outspending them.

[Wooderson]

V few clubs have dynastic success where success from a fans perspective requires only that you hang around a year or two.

[Wooderson]

Madrid, United, Munich are three. Barca in recent years. Juventus and Liverpool catching up at the back of the list.

[CRW5252]

13 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

What's a club like Arsenal? Football is cyclical and others are having their turn, I think football is better for not having Arsenal and Man U trade trophies. Arsenals tradition means very little if a Sheikh comes to city and pumps money in.

I don't see how you can lump top 20 clubs together as domestic circumstances are so varied. It's clearly easier for the likes of Juventus, PSG, Bayern to win domestic tournaments when they don't have teams outspending them.

Your opinion on whether football was better isn't really relevant but I thought those days were great for the record :p. I've mentioned it before (what a club like Arsenal is). I think the debate is just going round in circles now. Do you not think it is relevant that we were promised we would compete with Bayern? Or that Wenger and the board continuously say we are aiming to compete for the league and CL but we never do?

It doesn't even have to be the top 20 tbh. There are very few clubs that would tolerate the form we are in at the moment and the gradual decline we've been on since moving stadium

Edited April 13, 2017 by CRW5252

[eFestivals]

30 minutes ago, CRW5252 said:

You said 'Spurs, who've got lucky via having a couple of excellent players', in the context that was wrote it sounded like you were saying that their success has been purely down to the 'luck' they have had with players like Alli and Kane. I wasn't the only person who construed it in that way

and the million posts since then where I've made clear it's not only luck?

Fact is tho, Kane might not have been Kane. It's simply luck for spurs that he is. Spurs had very very little to do with that luck. It's a 'right place right time' thing.

[pink_triangle]

1 hour ago, Wooderson said:

I was referring to press/player's player awards.

Yes I understood. Just my view that the criteria both use for young player is silly. I would cut to 21.

[eFestivals]

32 minutes ago, CRW5252 said:

Or people that understand that for a club like Arsenal 2 trophies in 12 years is not good enough.

that's not anyone's 'understanding', it's simply your wants. 

An expectation like yours can only be fulfilled if kicking a ball about doesn't count for might be won.

The success of any team is wholey dependant on the failure of another.

 

32 minutes ago, CRW5252 said:

No top 20 club would put up with such a poor return.

I support a top 20 club so I have a right to win stuff? 

give up the footie and get into something with a guaranteed return instead, like a building society account or something.

 

32 minutes ago, CRW5252 said:

I can forgive the first 6-7 years after the stadium move as it was clear we were in a difficult financial situation but we were promised we would be competing with Bayern Munich by now. We aren't even close. 

Can I ask if you were out of nappies in those years?

 

[CRW5252]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

and the million posts since then where I've made clear it's not only luck?

Fact is tho, Kane might not have been Kane. It's simply luck for spurs that he is. Spurs had very very little to do with that luck. It's a 'right place right time' thing.

I didn't read much of the discussion you were having with others so apologies if that is the case.

I don't really agree with you about Kane though. Again there is some luck involved but I think you under estimate the effect coaches, facilities and scouting (they saw something Arsenal didn't in him) on finding and developing top talent. 

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, CRW5252 said:

Again there is some luck involved but I think you under estimate the effect coaches, facilities and scouting (they saw something Arsenal didn't in him) on finding and developing top talent. 

if those things had that effect on kane, why didn't it have that effect on the hundreds of other players who got binned along the way?

It only worked on Harry Kane cos Harry Kane is Harry Kane.

 

[CRW5252]

18 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

that's not anyone's 'understanding', it's simply your wants. 

An expectation like yours can only be fulfilled if kicking a ball about doesn't count for might be won.

The success of any team is wholey dependant on the failure of another.

 

I support a top 20 club so I have a right to win stuff? 

give up the footie and get into something with a guaranteed return instead, like a building society account or something.

 

Can I ask if you were out of nappies in those years?

 

Sounds like you have at least gone some way to admitting we are currently failing. 

I am not talking about rights, I am talking about a want to win trophies. I want to win trophies and I think Wenger leaving gives us the best chance at that.

I was not. Cheers for being patronizing though

Edited April 13, 2017 by CRW5252

[eFestivals]

Just now, CRW5252 said:

Sounds like you have at least gone some way to admitting we are currently failing. 

There's no right of winning - but your expectation says you think there is that right.

1 minute ago, CRW5252 said:

I think Wenger leaving gives us the best chance at that.

maybe it does.

And just as much, it gives the best chance of relegation too.