Football 16-17

[kaosmark2]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

a headline that could be written any day of the last 15+ years.

 

See also:
"Chelsea player accused of diving"
"Mourinho/Fergie blames anyone except themselves"
"Big Liverpool signing disappoints"
"Mike Ashley is a c**t"
"Arsenal need a defender"
"Ex-England fringe player shouts loudly on the TV about the team"

[pink_triangle]

On 10/4/2016 at 0:41 PM, mrtourette said:

I'm sure Ryan Giggs will overtake him at some point if Robbie Savage and Danny Mills have their way.

It's funny some players you think will make great managers. I have never thought that about Giggs.

[eFestivals]

13 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

It's funny some players you think will make great managers. I have never thought that about Giggs.

me neither.

I'm hoping he gets a job soon, where i suspect he'll fail and then never be heard of again.

[Comfy Bean]

Even money on England -4.

Looks like a good first game for a new manager.

[big__phil]

On 10/8/2016 at 4:57 PM, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Even money on England -4.

Looks like a good first game for a new manager.

Hard luck

[ThomThomDrum]

Whats the story with the LFC V Utd game on the Monday night. Strange one that, no?

Potential trouble/issues with a night time game? 

Historically didn't they try to have this an early KO to minimise drinking time beforehand

[mrtourette]

On 05/10/2016 at 7:16 PM, pink_triangle said:

It's funny some players you think will make great managers. I have never thought that about Giggs.

I imagine anyone with a basic understanding of the role of a football manager shares that opinion. Sad thing is that Robbie Savage and his band of merry idiots that are banging the "Get Giggsy A Job" drum are so stupid in their crusade that he's looking even worse by association.

F365 did a great job taking apart Savage's latest column and exposing the hypocrisy of Bob Bradley apparently blocking the path for young British managers working their way through the leagues (like Gary Rowett), whereas of course an ex-pro with fuck all experience and a sense of entitlement walking straight into a Premier League job wouldn't be doing that at all. The irony of Tim Sherwood complaining that young unqualified British managers aren't being given enough opportunities when his  own over-promotion and subsequent failings are partly responsible for the situation is completely lost on them. 

Edited October 11, 2016 by mrtourette

[Comfy Bean]

Feels like a must win for Scotland tonight after failing to win our last must win game on Saturday. 

Could see it going either way with both teams scoring. 

2-1 Scotland keeps us in it with Wembley looming next month. 

Have arranged to have a few pre match pints in Glasgow to calm the nerves :-)

[eFestivals]

Rooney gets dropped for Utd and England within a few weeks of each other.

The only question that needs asking is: why wasn't it done 5+ years ago.

 

[TheGayTent]

24 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Rooney gets dropped for Utd and England within a few weeks of each other.

The only question that needs asking is: why wasn't it done 5+ years ago.

 

As you're probably aware, I've never thought Rooney is as good as it's generally been accepted that he is/was - I got laughed at on here some years ago for suggesting Tevez was a better player than Rooney. 

However, who would you have dropped him for back in say 2010? Crouch? Defoe? Heskey? Walcott? Bent? 

 

[mrtourette]

I feel a bit sorry for him really (although I'm sure his £82 million a week will console him), unless he's held a gun to several manager's heads and forced them to select him it's hardly his fault. So he may have tried to convince them that he can play in a different position just to keep getting a game, is that surprising? I blame the weak managers who have continued to select him rather than standing up to the reality of what he can actually do, or the club executives that have insisted their highest-profile payer continue to play to help exposure in foreign markets.

It seems a shame that such vitriolic assessments of his current form and distasteful celebration of his demise will overshadow what an excellent footballer he was for the first 10 years of his career.

[mrtourette]

3 minutes ago, TheGayTent said:

As you're probably aware, I've never thought Rooney is as good as it's generally been accepted that he is/was - I got laughed at on here some years ago for suggesting Tevez was a better player than Rooney. 

However, who would you have dropped him for back in say 2010? Crouch? Defoe? Heskey? Walcott? Bent? 

 

You were probably right to be laughed at, but you have a good point - until very recently (and I wouldn't even say we're currently overflowing with talent) there hasn't been a great deal of competition up front, especially as a single point in a front three.

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, TheGayTent said:

As you're probably aware, I've never thought Rooney is as good as it's generally been accepted that he is/was - I got laughed at on here some years ago for suggesting Tevez was a better player than Rooney. 

However, who would you have dropped him for back in say 2010? Crouch? Defoe? Heskey? Walcott? Bent?

I get where you're coming from, but think you've fallen down the same "it must be an established player" thing as caused Rooney to remain in the team for too long.

Perhaps there really wasn't any other option to Rooney in 2010 - I really can't remember enough of the details of that specific year to say.

But that's definitely not been the case for all years that Rooney hasn't been that great, but it's that 'established player' thing which has kept him in the team.

BTW, I presume you're fully supportive of the new England captain for tonight...?

[eFestivals]

8 minutes ago, mrtourette said:

It seems a shame that such vitriolic assessments of his current form and distasteful celebration of his demise will overshadow what an excellent footballer he was for the first 10 years of his career.

but .... people have fewer problems about his place in the team for that first ten years of his career. It's the years after that first ten years that are the problem.

[TheGayTent]

21 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I get where you're coming from, but think you've fallen down the same "it must be an established player" thing as caused Rooney to remain in the team for too long.

Perhaps there really wasn't any other option to Rooney in 2010 - I really can't remember enough of the details of that specific year to say.

But that's definitely not been the case for all years that Rooney hasn't been that great, but it's that 'established player' thing which has kept him in the team.

BTW, I presume you're fully supportive of the new England captain for tonight...?

I haven't fallen down any trap. You're questioning why he hasn't been dropped before. Unless you're suggesting England should have played with ten men, someone else would have replaced him. I'm asking, if you think he should have been dropped, who you would have picked to replace him. I can't agree or disagree with you, until you offer an alternative. 

The England captain for the next game highlights two issues England have, and have had for a long time. Namely, a lack of quality and a lack of leaders. 

What has kept Rooney in the England team in my opinion is his excellent goal scoring record in non tournament internationals and the lack of obvious replacements. 

Edited October 11, 2016 by TheGayTent
Edited to add:

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, TheGayTent said:

I haven't fallen down any trap. You're questioning why he hasn't been dropped before. Unless you're suggesting England should have played with ten men, someone else would have replaced him. I'm asking, if you think he should have been dropped, who you would have picked to replace him. I can't agree or disagree with you, until you offer an alternative. 

the possible alternatives vary with the years, so while it might be the case that some year's Rooney's place was justified, it's also the case that sometimes his presence wasn't - such as for the tournament just gone.

Who the replacement might be would vary because of that - but we had an excess of strikers this summer, of which Rooney was the worst, and while he didn't play as an out & out  striker there were other options for where he did play. He played because of him being established and a big name, and not necessarily because he was the best player for that position.

 

4 minutes ago, TheGayTent said:

The England captain for the next game highlights two issues England have, and have had for a long time. Namely, a lack of quality and a lack of leaders. 

Hmmmm ... Henderson set-up both goals at the weekend. If he's a 'lack of quality' problem, there's bigger problems elsewhere.

As for 'leaders', Southgate is no fool, and Henderson has been his captain at u-21 and I said years ago he'd also be England captain one day.

There's an amount of 'establishment' within that, tho it's hard to judge from the outside how big a factor that is. There's more to leadership than being the meathead that is often the English view of who is a good leader (think Tony Adams, or Terry Butcher).

As far as it goes, I can't see how he'd be worse than Rooney.

 

4 minutes ago, TheGayTent said:

What has kept Rooney in the England team in my opinion is his excellent goal scoring record in non tournament internationals and the lack of obvious replacements. 

I'd say Rooney is/was much like Beckham (with England matches), in that you can see in the first ten minutes whether he'll be a decent asset in that match or not.

The problem with both has been that the player's profile has stopped the manager acting against them in the same way they might treat another member of the team who's performing poorly on the day, as well as impacting into who is picked for the next match.

 

[TheGayTent]

You can't prove a negative. That's why there's so much discussion and little agreement. 

[pink_triangle]

12 hours ago, mrtourette said:

.

F365 did a great job taking apart Savage's latest column and exposing the hypocrisy of Bob Bradley apparently blocking the path for young British managers working their way through the leagues (like Gary Rowett), whereas of course an ex-pro with fuck all experience and a sense of entitlement walking straight into a Premier League job wouldn't be doing that at all.  

http://www.football365.com/news/mediawatch-extra-robbie-savage-on-giggs

I was going to post this and forgot, great article

9 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Perhaps there really wasn't any other option to Rooney in 2010 - I really can't remember enough of the details of that specific year to say.

 

Interestingly I do remember 2010 (world cup south Africa) and the narrative from the tabloid press going into that tournament was an attempt to put him in an elite trio with Ronaldo and Messi.

[pink_triangle]

9 hours ago, TheGayTent said:

The England captain for the next game highlights two issues England have, and have had for a long time. Namely, a lack of quality and a lack of leaders. 

What has kept Rooney in the England team in my opinion is his excellent goal scoring record in non tournament internationals and the lack of obvious replacements. 

I have never understood why England are so obsessed with the captaincy. I couldn't care less who the Wales captain is and from what I have read most other nations think the same. I can understand why the player would want it, as its a lucrative gig, but don't understand why anyone else carers.

I agree about your point about Rooneys scoring record. In Euro 2016 qualification he was one of the top scorers, I think managers from other countries would have picked someone with that record as well.

9 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 

Who the replacement might be would vary because of that - but we had an excess of strikers this summer, of which Rooney was the worst, and while he didn't play as an out & out  striker there were other options for where he did play. He played because of him being established and a big name, and not necessarily because he was the best player for that position.

An excess of strikers judging purely on premiership matches, but lacking much track record at European and international level.

Edited October 11, 2016 by pink_triangle

[TheGayTent]

2 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

I have never understood why England are so obsessed with the captaincy. I couldn't care less who the Wales captain is and from what I have read most other nations think the same. I can understand why the player would want it, as its a lucrative gig, but don't understand why anyone else carers.

No one cares who the captain is unless there's a lack of leaders. 

As long standing members of this community I know your thoughts on captaincy - in many ways I don't disagree with it - however, I still can't think of dynasty that contained a team with no leaders. 

A captain is only important if there's a dirth of leaders. England don't have a captain, let alone a leader. 

You'll not like it, but the truth is, no one including you, gives a flying one who the Wales captain is, because you're losers. 

[pink_triangle]

10 minutes ago, TheGayTent said:

 

You'll not like it, but the truth is, no one including you, gives a flying one who the Wales captain is, because you're losers. 

For a country of 3 million I think Wales do OK. I'm not expecting another top 4 performance in my lifetime, but enjoyed it while it lasted.

I'm certainly not going to disagree with your point about leaders. You look at that France 98 team and forget who the captain was. However I'm not sure your point about losers is valid because everything I have read and heard (admittedly while not living in these countries) suggests winners (however you define that) in general don't have this obsession with the captaincy England do, despite having peaks and troughs in the amount of leaders at any one time.

[Rose-Colored Boy]

On 04/10/2016 at 2:18 AM, kaosmark2 said:

Doubt it, most managers come from the merry-go-round.

Especially at Villa. Bruce being linked seems hilarious to me.

Literally. The last time Villa appointed an ex-Blues boss it triggered the beginning of a five year decline ending in relegation so why on earth would they try the same trick again..? That club is the gift that keeps on giving.

Edited October 11, 2016 by Zac Quinn

[pink_triangle]

4 minutes ago, Zac Quinn said:

Literally. The last time Villa appointed an ex-Blues boss it triggered the beginning of a five year decline ending in relegation so why on earth would they try the same trick again..? That club is the gift that keeps on giving.

Steve Bruce has a track record of getting clubs promoted from the championship, so I can understand the logic.

[TheGayTent]

3 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

For a country of 3 million I think Wales do OK. I'm not expecting another top 4 performance in my lifetime, but enjoyed it while it lasted.

I'm certainly not going to disagree with your point about leaders. You look at that France 98 team and forget who the captain was. However I'm not sure your point about losers is valid because everything I have read and heard (admittedly while not living in these countries) suggests winners (however you define that) in general don't have this obsession with the captaincy England do, despite having peaks and troughs in the amount of leaders at any one time.

That is the point - yes Wales, very recently, have done well for a country with their resources. But they still have won sweet FA. 

And again, that is the point. Winners don't obsess about captains, precisely because they have many leaders within their team, not just their captain. 

Great football teams, have a choice of captains, and therefore it matters little which one they choose. Poor football teams, (England currently) struggle to name one. 

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

An excess of strikers judging purely on premiership matches, but lacking much track record at European and international level.

Rooney's own track record is poor in tournaments, and other strikers only get a track record if they get the same opportunity as Rooney has had but done poorly with.

That's the point to me, really. Rooney has been shown as not that great. I'm happy to concede that might be how it goes with others too, but we never find out if they don't get the chance, and if they get the chance, who knows, they might do better.