Football 16-17

[ThomThomDrum]

Really hope LFC score early in that game so that bus can fuck off.........

[TheGayTent]

Ched Evans found not guilty...

[eFestivals]

11 minutes ago, TheGayTent said:

Ched Evans found not guilty...

some football pantomime coming up, then.

 

[pink_triangle]

I got the impression there were people on here hoping for a guilty verdict. Will be interesting to see what some of these people feel today.

[kaosmark2]

I really don't like that her sexual history was used as evidence against her. That seems an irrelevant factor to me and smacks of slut-shaming.

That's my only real criticism of the case. I have no opinion as to whether he is guilty or not, as I haven't reviewed the evidence in any detail and am only going by (biased) media reports. I just find the idea that a woman's previous sexual activity is relevant to a rape inquiry worrying.

The Sun's response front page is ridiculously hypocritical though:

"A slimeball who treats women like dirt"

"See all of Ola"

[bunique]

I was really quite disheartened by it all yesterday, especially after reading a post elsewhere that a woman who had recently reported a rape to the police had cancelled her appointment to give a statement after the verdict due to her "colourful" sexual history. 

However, I later read this which clarified some of the points of law. 

https://thesecretbarrister.com/2016/10/14/10-myths-busted-about-the-ched-evans-case/

I think what has been missed throughout is that she never reported being raped. The police and CPS pursued the conviction based on Evans' (and the other guy, presumably) own description of events. I feel immensely sad for the girl in question. I still think the "new witnesses" are questionable, but either they gave a good account of themselves or the prosecution did a poor job of making any connection with the cash reward. 

His girlfriend is a fucking moron. 

I think there needs to be an enormous focus on educating boys particularly, and girls, on consent and relationships from the earliest days. My daughter is 5 and has already experienced sexualised behaviour in the playground  We may not be going backwards but we're hardly making great strides.

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, kaosmark2 said:

I really don't like that her sexual history was used as evidence against her. That seems an irrelevant factor to me and smacks of slut-shaming.

It certainly makes me extremely uncomfortable about the verdict, because we know without that evidence the verdict goes the other way.

Yet at the same time, when the only truly-damning evidence of rape against Evans is the girl's take that she wouldn't have consented but that she cannot remember any of what actually happened, I can certainly see how an innocent Evan's would want to try and have her history as part of the evidence, as it's the only way that he can support his version of events.

My confusion over it all is shown up by the fact that in many ways I find myself agreeing with the Sun's front page, whilst knowing that if consent were given, while I might find some or all of what happened very distasteful, what consenting adults do is their own business.

I suppose, in the end, that either-way take of mine is mirrored by the two different verdicts and the full sentence Evan's has already served despite eventually being deemed not-guilty. And it's not like he's ever going to shake this off despite the (now) not-guilty.

For his accuser, I can't begin to understand how she might feel about it - tho I'd like to think her lack of memory of the incident itself might make it easier for her to deal with than might be the case for other rape victims. While legally she might not be a rape victim, presumably that's how she feels no matter what the verdict.

[pink_triangle]

53 minutes ago, bunique said:

I think there needs to be an enormous focus on educating boys particularly, and girls, on consent and relationships from the earliest days. My daughter is 5 and has already experienced sexualised behaviour in the playground  We may not be going backwards but we're hardly making great strides.

While I agree that education will always be beneficial.  Unfortunately a lot of that will go out of the window when people have had excessive alcohol. 

9 hours ago, kaosmark2 said:

I really don't like that her sexual history was used as evidence against her. That seems an irrelevant factor to me and smacks of slut-shaming.

That's my only real criticism of the case. I have no opinion as to whether he is guilty or not, as I haven't reviewed the evidence in any detail and am only going by (biased) media reports. I just find the idea that a woman's previous sexual activity is relevant to a rape inquiry worrying.

 

I have concerns about sexual history being used as well. However if I had been falsely accused of rape and something about the girls sexual history supported my innocence, than you could be certain I would want that to be used.

When it came to the verdict I was happy to accept the guilty verdict at the time, now happy to accept the not guilty one from people who have sat on the jury.  I imagine these cases are very difficult to ever have 100% certainty. I can understand why woman are reluctant to bring these cases, especially as the law (rightfully) starts from a presumption of innocence.

[eFestivals]

52 minutes ago, bunique said:

His girlfriend is a fucking moron. 

It's back to that 'consenting adults' thing here. She's free to consent to his behaviour, or to forgive him for it.

I know from what I've read in the past that her old man is loaded, so it would appear to be the case that her reason to be with Evans isn't about the money (as it might perhaps be with other 'WAGS'). So perhaps there's more to their relationship than you wish to credit and who's really to say it's wrong for them, even if it's not something you'd accept for yourself? To go thru all of that and still stay together must take some doing, and you'd have to want to really do it.

I reckon all relationships might look weird in one way or another to outsiders if the full intimate details were exposed as they have been around these two. Many do forgive their partner's infidelity, and who's to say it's always wrong to do so?

And if she has had to forgive him she's been a victim of his behaviour too, and I'm not sure how it can help to abuse a victim.

The best result from here, I'd say, for everyone concerned would be to try and put it behind them move on. In the end there isn't anything else to do.

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, bunique said:

I think there needs to be an enormous focus on educating boys particularly, and girls, on consent and relationships from the earliest days. My daughter is 5 and has already experienced sexualised behaviour in the playground  We may not be going backwards but we're hardly making great strides.

The world isn't perfect so it's not the time to give up, but the wife and I were talking about this earlier (around Trump rather than Evans) and both of us reckoned things have changed absolutely massively during our lifetime. What used to be the accepted norm or something 'funny' to do in our schooldays and later is no longer the case.

There's lots more to do, but don't go thinking nothing is changing. The nature of being socialised does tho mean it can't be an instant fix and will improve over generations.

[Hugh Jass]

10 hours ago, kaosmark2 said:

I really don't like that her sexual history was used as evidence against her. That seems an irrelevant factor to me and smacks of slut-shaming.

That's my only real criticism of the case. I have no opinion as to whether he is guilty or not, as I haven't reviewed the evidence in any detail and am only going by (biased) media reports. I just find the idea that a woman's previous sexual activity is relevant to a rape inquiry worrying.

The Sun's response front page is ridiculously hypocritical though:

"A slimeball who treats women like dirt"

"See all of Ola"

Only The Sun could display such a lack of self awareness.

Back on football, making my first trip to The Hawthorns of the season today to see us against Spurs. Fancy us to get something, we usually do pretty well against them.

Edited October 15, 2016 by Hugh Jass

[pink_triangle]

I find it funny that the sun condemn Evans as a slimeball who treats woman as dirt, yet happy to give a free pass to others men who are also guilty of adultery.

Also very hypocritical some football fans who take the attitude that he may be not guilty, but is still a scumbag who deserved what he got, yet at the same time would have no issues cheering one of their own who had been unfaithful to his girlfriend.

[kaosmark2]

I say this every time the issue of consent comes up, but IMO consent isn't enough, there should be enthusiasm.

[pink_triangle]

The advantage of supporting a non league is getting to add many new grounds to the list. Today I did Stamford, no segregation and standing which was a welcome change.

[TheGayTent]

'Pards' showing his tactical nous again today.

Officials doing their best to spoil the game again today. 

Great day out at Selhurst again, more of the same against Sunderland please, some decent football especially in the first half 

[eFestivals]

17 hours ago, kaosmark2 said:

I say this every time the issue of consent comes up, but IMO consent isn't enough, there should be enthusiasm.

Well, if it helps, Evans' whole defense was based around her supposed enthusiasm.

Edited October 16, 2016 by eFestivals

[grumpyhack]

I was at a music festival a few years back when a young woman dancing in front of me reversed into me, put her hands behind her back and started feeling me up.  I ran a mile.

There was plenty of enthusiasm on her part, as there was, allegedly, on the part of the woman in the Ched Evans case.  But enthusiasm, particularly if fuelled by booze, can be the first step to later regrets all round.

[lost]

15 minutes ago, grumpyhack said:

I was at a music festival a few years back when a young woman dancing in front of me reversed into me, put her hands behind her back and started feeling me up.  I ran a mile.

There was plenty of enthusiasm on her part, as there was, allegedly, on the part of the woman in the Ched Evans case.  But enthusiasm, particularly if fuelled by booze, can be the first step to later regrets all round.

I've had something similar. Its difficult when she effectively sexually assaults you and the emphasis is still on you to realize that its not a good idea to proceed with the situation. 

[LondonTom]

Well being able to watch MoTD again was a good start in turning the corner

Now if West Ham could just play well and score a goal down my end of the Olympic Stadium next week (So I can see it :P) I'll be happy!

[big__phil]

A good weekend so far for Arsenal, with City and Spurs both dropping points. Not sure about the Xhaka red card though, looked a little harsh to me. Swansea could have got at least a point out of the game, and missed some very good chances towards the end. (The less said about Theo's miss the better.)

Hull were dreadful, and Bournemouth could have scored more. Can't see them staying up.

Oh, and I totally called it:

On 10/13/2016 at 11:36 AM, big__phil said:

Chadli to score against Spurs would be hilarious.

Hoping for a good game tonight, but I fear Moaniho's will set his team up to defend pretty deep against a pacy Liverpool side. Hopefully the game won't suffer, and we get an early goal to set things up.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, big__phil said:

A good weekend so far for Arsenal, with City and Spurs both dropping points. Not sure about the Xhaka red card though, looked a little harsh to me. Swansea could have got at least a point out of the game, and missed some very good chances towards the end. (The less said about Theo's miss the better.)

Hull were dreadful, and Bournemouth could have scored more. Can't see them staying up.

Oh, and I totally called it:

Hoping for a good game tonight, but I fear Moaniho's will set his team up to defend pretty deep against a pacy Liverpool side. Hopefully the game won't suffer, and we get an early goal to set things up.

I've seen the last three Swansea games, and i feel soirry for matey who got sacked. They've been decent in all of those games - and they weren't any different with the new manager.

Theo's miss - actually, two of them - were dreadful, but it didn't matter. He played well all the same.

The good weekend from others dropping points is for liverpool, if they win tonight and pump in a few goals too. They could be looking down on everyone tonight. More likely is a parked bus and a sneaked-win by Utd tho.

[big__phil]

59 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I've seen the last three Swansea games, and i feel soirry for matey who got sacked. They've been decent in all of those games - and they weren't any different with the new manager.

Theo's miss - actually, two of them - were dreadful, but it didn't matter. He played well all the same.

The good weekend from others dropping points is for liverpool, if they win tonight and pump in a few goals too. They could be looking down on everyone tonight. More likely is a parked bus and a sneaked-win by Utd tho.

I think the real danger for Swansea is if they move away from for the possession-based football that's served them so well under Martinez/Sousa/Rodgers/Laudrup/Monk. It always worked before because they always had the same way of playing, and players who would always understand that. I hope they don't lose their nerve in a relegation battle.

Yes, if Liverpool win the top four will be within 1 point of each other, with a slight gap opening up to Chelsea, Everton and Utd. If Utd win they'll go level on points with Chelski and Liverpool. Very early days to say it's a 'must-win game' for either team, but it does feel more important for Utd than it does Liverpool.

[mungo57]

Was a really SHIT match yesterday but Jose Holebas' goal more than made up for the shittiness! What a strike that was. No chance for the keeper.

Re: tonights game my grand prediction is 2-2..... not sure if Liverpool have enough about them to win against a Mourinho team that may end up just parking the bus.

[The Nal]

More important for Utd yeah but Liverpool winning would put them top going into a relatively winnable run of games. West Brom, Palace, Watford, Saints, Sunderland, Bournmouth, West Ham, Boro, Everton and Stoke to bring them to XMas. 

Utd on the other hand have a tough month. Liverpool away tonight, Fenerbahce, Chelsea away, City in the piss pot, Burnley, Fenerbahce away, Swansea, Arsenal. 

Really looking forward to it either way. Evening kick offs between the two are rare. Atmosphere will be bananas. Have to favour Liverpool for the win.

[thetime]

Those predicting utd will park the bus, you do realise utd don't have the personnel  to park the bus.

They don't have the defence or the defensive  midfielders to accomplish that style.