The Chilcot Report

[feral chile]

8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

yet you didn't seem to think that earlier today when you posted a link to something which couldn't have been about anything pre-2000.

If you're now recognising that you got it wrong there that's fine, but you should also be realising that there ceases to be a reason to criticise me for pointing out your error.

I definitely remember a big fuss about European funds that deprived areas on Wales qualified for being diverted to England, and it being a big deal among the nashies I worked and socialised with. this would have been late 80s early 90s. I'm fairly sure the town in question was Merthyr.

I'm really confused now about everything else.

it is a 30 year old memory, after all.

Edited July 8, 2016 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, feral chile said:

I definitely remember a big fuss about European funds that deprived areas on Wales

yep, it's a long standing 'myth', one that's spread far wider than Wales in its own right (I've been aware of it for well over a decade, when I have no connection with Wales), and been adapted for local use in more than one place. I don't doubt you remember 'a fuss'.

What I do doubt (don't take this personally) is how much of that memory is accurate today. No one seems to have any proof or real reference of it ever actually having happened, and perhaps the 'fuss' you remember is the fuss it caused to you and around you when you first heard of it (a false memory of sorts).

For myself, I'm certain that I saw Paul Merton take Jimmy Savile apart on HIGNFY, and Phil Collins say he'd leave the country if the Labour won in 1992 - both of which are apparently impossible because they apparently never happened. I still find that hard to believe.

So who knows? Proof would be useful.

[feral chile]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

yep, it's a long standing 'myth', one that's spread far wider than Wales in its own right (I've been aware of it for well over a decade, when I have no connection with Wales), and been adapted for local use in more than one place. I don't doubt you remember 'a fuss'.

What I do doubt (don't take this personally) is how much of that memory is accurate today. No one seems to have any proof or real reference of it ever actually having happened, and perhaps the 'fuss' you remember is the fuss it caused to you and around you when you first heard of it (a false memory of sorts).

For myself, I'm certain that I saw Paul Merton take Jimmy Savile apart on HIGNFY, and Phil Collins say he'd leave the country if the Labour won in 1992 - both of which are apparently impossible because they apparently never happened. I still find that hard to believe.

So who knows? Proof would be useful.

This is indeed possible.

[kaosmark2]

You've engaged in plenty of arguments like this with Neil yourself Barry.

[feral chile]

25 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Just wondering if feral and Neil ever do any real work....  

I do a compressed week. I'm never on here in work.

Though I'm often working on days off, going over guidance etc.

Edited July 8, 2016 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

I of course do nothing at all, as everything efestivals works by magic.

And the best way to demonstrate your dislike of bollocks is always by more of it.

 

 

 

[feral chile]

5 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

I manage to wind three people up a once   Oh the power

3 though?

[russycarps]

christ you're +5 now...the end is nigh

[kaosmark2]

1 hour ago, Barry Fish said:

Kosmark got involved

I just pointed out you've engaged in the same thing. I'm not wound up at all.

[russycarps]

1 hour ago, Barry Fish said:

Just took one off you for the crack

ffs our green numbers are no joking matter!

[feral chile]

10 hours ago, eFestivals said:

yep, it's a long standing 'myth', one that's spread far wider than Wales in its own right (I've been aware of it for well over a decade, when I have no connection with Wales), and been adapted for local use in more than one place. I don't doubt you remember 'a fuss'.

What I do doubt (don't take this personally) is how much of that memory is accurate today. No one seems to have any proof or real reference of it ever actually having happened, and perhaps the 'fuss' you remember is the fuss it caused to you and around you when you first heard of it (a false memory of sorts).

For myself, I'm certain that I saw Paul Merton take Jimmy Savile apart on HIGNFY, and Phil Collins say he'd leave the country if the Labour won in 1992 - both of which are apparently impossible because they apparently never happened. I still find that hard to believe.

So who knows? Proof would be useful.

I'm still trying to get clarification of this, another PC member says funding did indeed get allocated to the UK, who then divvied it up. he's going to speak to someone who was around and in a place to know, and get back to me as to exactly how it works.

[feral chile]

14 hours ago, eFestivals said:

except you're trying the re-write you're accusing me of doing.

You might have a memory of something, so why not present something which matches yuour claimed memory and not something which clearly doesn't?

In all cases where you're embarrassed about your own failings you start an argument about me. I'm not blind to it. It's pathetic.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/RP00-72/RP00-72.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwj0rcm4_OTNAhVVF8AKHXatCrIQFggjMAM&usg=AFQjCNHGvXVhC7CUcHBG_OC3nVYzb-sBdQ&sig2=q2Y5DvtF6e3Rj74F-1DTFA

 

[feral chile]

7 hours ago, feral chile said:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/RP00-72/RP00-72.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwj0rcm4_OTNAhVVF8AKHXatCrIQFggjMAM&usg=AFQjCNHGvXVhC7CUcHBG_OC3nVYzb-sBdQ&sig2=q2Y5DvtF6e3Rj74F-1DTFA

 

The devolved administrations for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland differ from the other UK Government departments in the way in these extra spending needs are taken into account in Departmental Expenditure Limits (DELs). Whereas for the UK Government departments, amounts for specific items can be added directly to the relevant department’s DEL, the Barnett Formula is used to allocate changes in the amounts available for spending to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Rather than taking explicit account of specific pressures or underlying needs, the formula allocates to each country’s DEL a proportion of the relevant ‘English’ DEL, taking account only of population figures and the extent to which programmes in Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland are comparable with those in England.  In other words, extra money for Objective 1 in Wales – whether for public expenditure cover or match funding – will not automatically find its way into the Welsh DEL.

 

And this is from the House of Commons.

[eFestivals]

38 minutes ago, feral chile said:

The devolved administrations for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland differ from the other UK Government departments in the way in these extra spending needs are taken into account in Departmental Expenditure Limits (DELs). Whereas for the UK Government departments, amounts for specific items can be added directly to the relevant department’s DEL, the Barnett Formula is used to allocate changes in the amounts available for spending to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Rather than taking explicit account of specific pressures or underlying needs, the formula allocates to each country’s DEL a proportion of the relevant ‘English’ DEL, taking account only of population figures and the extent to which programmes in Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland are comparable with those in England.  In other words, extra money for Objective 1 in Wales – whether for public expenditure cover or match funding – will not automatically find its way into the Welsh DEL.

 

And this is from the House of Commons.

and is still nothing that proves the myth is not a myth.

FFS.

[feral chile]

26 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

and is still nothing that proves the myth is not a myth.

FFS.

What myth? That not all EU funding intended for Wales used to find its way to Wales? Says right there in that House of Commons research paper, and why it happened.

It doesn't happen any more, please don't ask me to research that, I wasted loads of time finding this, and even roped in someone who's involved in local politics who's going to check it out with someone who had actually been involved with this back in the day, and is still a political figure locally.

We're hijacking this thread, by the way. I'm satisfied that I remembered correctly now, which at my age is always something to consider,  particularly as I try hard not to feed into any folklore.

[eFestivals]

12 minutes ago, feral chile said:

What myth? That not all EU funding intended for Wales used to find its way to Wales? Says right there in that House of Commons research paper, and why it happened.

The bit you bolded?

On the basis of your last post your reading skills are too poor to allow rational conversation. I'm out.

[feral chile]

16 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

The bit you bolded?

On the basis of your last post your reading skills are too poor to allow rational conversation. I'm out.

Nah, you just haven't grasped how the EU funding used to be allocated. I doubt you've read the whole research paper. You could have just acknowledged that I had basis for what I said earlier.

You asked for evidence, I've provided evidence. Not social media but government evidence, which I've been trying to trace for you. there is more, but it consists of parliamentary debates involving Dafydd Wigley and parliament, so they're lengthy and longwinded.

This was never a huge debating point anyway, apart from you accusing me of all kinds of stuff. When i'm ignorant of something, I admit it. When I'm wrong, or can see the other perspective, I'll concede that too. When I'm reacting emotionally, or know I'm giving an opinion, I'll try to make that clear. But I'm not having someone call me a liar or of not understanding or researching factual information, as this is incorrect.

And official evidence and research is something I'm usually aware of, and careful of.

Edited July 9, 2016 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

24 minutes ago, feral chile said:

Nah, you just haven't grasped how the EU funding used to be allocated.

Oh, I have.

Was the UK taking EU funds earmarked for Wales? You've still not provided any proof, just provided something that says it was technically possible. I know it was technically possible.

And of course, the reason why it was (it's not now, the rules changed) technically possible is because the UK govt was (and still is) already over-funding Wales against the UK average, on a needs basis. That needs basis includes within it the need of development funding (tho , when it was a UK-govt thing and not EU, the UK govt often dished out extra development packages on top).

I know that Wales has, for whatever reasons, got a smaller slice of 'needs' money over many years than its deserving of by its needs, so I'm not claiming any perfection for how UK money is divvied up. But for the sake of thinking it thru, just go for a moment with the idea that UK money is perfectly divvied up....

If the UK did pass on that EU money in those perfect circumstances, that would equate to Wales getting an unfair share of all (both UK & EU) funding against its needs, so the fair way to deal with it would be for the UK to divvie up the EU money, and spread it around the UK on a needs basis - and so 'fair' and not 'unfair' would be the UK keeping that money from Wales.

So even if it did ever happen - and no one seems to have any proof (you're welcome to find some, if you can) - what you wish to call unfair on Wales may be the opposite of that.

Edited July 9, 2016 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

27 minutes ago, feral chile said:

You asked for evidence, I've provided evidence.

Of it happening?

Nope.

[feral chile]

Just now, eFestivals said:

Of it happening?

Nope.

Oh come on, you know I'm not going to be able to access documentation pre internet, on local affairs. My contact might know of some though, there's loads of stuff in the Plaid Cymru archives so it's probably in there somewhere. I don't have months to go find it though.

And why do you think a House of Commons research paper would even mention it if it didn't happen? This was around the time of the reforms, so it became part of the reforms.

But would you even accept anything less than time travel as proof?

Nobody's saying that governments don't care, there are impact assessments on all sorts of stuff all the time. And MP's will bring up things affecting their constituents. And I'm sure things like this get emphasised to garner support. The way things are organised and presented matter.

Things like this need to be addressed, and they were addressed. Now we need to do the same with today's concerns. Just like Welsh concerns ended up in a referendum, so did concerns about immigration. And as you rightly said, local impact needs to be considered as well as the big picture, because local impact is part of the big picture.

[eFestivals]

Just now, feral chile said:

And why do you think a House of Commons research paper would even mention it if it didn't happen?

perhaps because duplicitous nationalists had been using the possibly to drive the wedge...?  Who knows.

What I do know is that a statement which outlines the technically possible is not proof of the action.

But to bring it back to topical, in effect (tho via different routes) the UK govt can today cause the same effect of what you claim they did in the past and are likely to do in the future, but aren't doing today. So perhaps this is really more about you than it is them?

[feral chile]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

perhaps because duplicitous nationalists had been using the possibly to drive the wedge...?  Who knows.

What I do know is that a statement which outlines the technically possible is not proof of the action.

But to bring it back to topical, in effect (tho via different routes) the UK govt can today cause the same effect of what you claim they did in the past and are likely to do in the future, but aren't doing today. So perhaps this is really more about you than it is them?

In what way?

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, feral chile said:

In what way?

 

[feral chile]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

Barnett Formula, match funding, something else? Am I thinking too technical? As in, Westminster could just tell us to sod off?

Edited July 9, 2016 by feral chile