US Presidential Election 2016

[eFestivals]

11 minutes ago, feral chile said:

I agree to an extent. I think there's a need to understand what's going on, rather than just labelling people.

But I also think we need to guard against haters winning hearts and minds because of anger and alienation.

I'm trying to.

You're sitting back and giving zahidf a free pass for his hatred that at-least matches anything Trump is guilty of. 

 

Edited November 10, 2016 by eFestivals

[pink_triangle]

11 hours ago, LJS said:

 

Whilst Hilary may have been the wrong candidate for 2016 and may have run the wrong campaign for 2016, this should not be any excuse for anyone with any common decency voting for a reptile like Trump. it's an issue the democratic party desperately needs to address but must not be allowed to let Trump of the hook for the disgusting & amoral campaign he ran.

Whilst the fact that Clinton got more votes than Trump may seem to be a bit of a technicality, it is important to bear it in mind before we portray all Americans as dumb racist bigots. 

Im sure there are many decent people in America who voted for Trump, Im certainly not going to question the morals of half the country.  Im sure many people who voted for Trump hated many of the things the man said, yet there were only 2 options and they didnt like the second. Many would have felt much happier if Obama and Romney had been back on the ballot, but that wasnt the choice the people had.

I think there is a perfectly moral case to be made for a person to hate what Trump says, but feel he is more likely to make the life of them and their family better.  As someone on the left Im extremely concerned about others on the left condemning half the county as morally corrupt because they supported a right wing candidate. It should not be forgotten that many of the people written off as racists supported Obama and the democrats need to get those votes back to win, oversimplifying the argument by calling them all bigots is a terrible way to achieve this.  

[michael eavis' beard]

9 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

but ... but ... but .... it's a legitimate source for proving just how evil and dangerous Trump is. He's going to murder all darkies and throw them into the sea, just as someone's saying.

Even when Trump is doing fuck all - and 'victims' are making victims of themselves - it's all Trump's doing.

Honest.

I never said it was a legitimate source for anything!

And have I said any of that other shit?  No.

[feral chile]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

But it's  you that's making the biggest suggestion that there's blame for 'the darkies'.

YOU say the left has failed, and then go full steam ahead with the narrativethat's failed them.

YOU are legitimising that angle, by calling it out before its happened. 

YOU are the boy crying wolf. When the wolf is in the room, no one will listen to you.

 

well I'm undecided about this. on the one hand, I'm horrified that so many people would vote for someone who comes out with such ignorant crap as trump, and heartened by the protests that have taken place, showing that I'm not alone in feeling that way.

I'm sure those groups who feel vulnerable right now probably take some comfort in knowing they have some support out there.

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

I'm trying to.

You're sitting back and giving zahidf a free pass for his hatred that at-least matches anything Trump is guilty of. 

 

fear is an awful thing, it breeds hatred, and it leads good people to do bad things.

fear of muslims is a prime example, it plays right into the hands of extremists on both sides. so I can see where you're both coming from.

I think there's a need for reassurance that racism and hatred towards minority and vulnerable groups is still considered totally unacceptable, given the way the West is turning right.

[pink_triangle]

36 minutes ago, zahidf said:

 

They have reason to be scared. But hey, who cares about them, when 'economically anxious' people want tax cuts?

Do you believe in 100% tax? You oversimplify things to a ridiculous degree.  Some transgender people actually want tax cuts, what box do you stick them in? There is nothing at all morally wrong with believing you should pay less tax, thinking government wastes too much money etc.

[feral chile]

4 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Do you believe in 100% tax? You oversimplify things to a ridiculous degree.  Some transgender people actually want tax cuts, what box do you stick them in? There is nothing at all morally wrong with believing you should pay less tax, thinking government wastes too much money etc.

Does that come from recent comments, or something I've missed from before?

As I see it, you have people voting for brexit, and presumably for Trump, partly for economic reasons, and for at the very least borderline racist reasons, certainly with brexit, i'm hearing a lot about what amounts to keeping 'our' resources for 'ourselves'.

voting in someone who's preaching hate because they promise tax cuts would be unacceptable in my view, if that's what you're defending.

it detracts from what the problem really is. It scapegoats people. but what the answer is I don't know.

probably scrapping the lot and starting again.

maybe when the oil runs out...

Edited November 10, 2016 by feral chile

[zahidf]

3 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Do you believe in 100% tax? You oversimplify things to a ridiculous degree.  Some transgender people actually want tax cuts, what box do you stick them in? There is nothing at all morally wrong with believing you should pay less tax, thinking government wastes too much money etc.

'This ticket will make gay conversion camps more likely but promises a tax cut'

 

'A tax cut you say...'

'This ticket will ban muslims from coming into the country but promises a tax cut'

 

'A tax cut you say'...

And so on.

[pink_triangle]

23 minutes ago, zahidf said:

The left has failed, but resorting to blaming the darkies wont help. Its not true and is divisive.

 

this is an eye opening thread

 

 

Why do you feel the need to call them darkies out of interest? Just to note many non white people made a democratic choice to vote trump or stay at home.

[feral chile]

4 minutes ago, zahidf said:

'This ticket will make gay conversion camps more likely but promises a tax cut'

 

'A tax cut you say...'

'This ticket will ban muslims from coming into the country but promises a tax cut'

 

'A tax cut you say'...

And so on.

there are 2 separate issues here.

I'm hoping these fears will come to nothing, because trump just made outrageous claims to get into power, and the country's really run by well educated, enlightened bureaucrats.

what's more worrying is the economic and cultural climate that popularised these views in the first place. and the fact that bigots will feel validated.

Also, there's a need to keep a cool head, or you run the risk of alienating people who are borderline, and escalating the situation.

this is how radicalisation happens.

Edited November 10, 2016 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

13 minutes ago, michael eavis' beard said:

I never said it was a legitimate source for anything!

And have I said any of that other shit?  No.

that wasn't aimed at you. 

It was an attempt at a witty follow-on from what you'd said, that's all.

[The Nal]

44 minutes ago, zahidf said:

.I suspect its more because Pence is in a position of more power  he is anti-trans, as per him being responsible for the bathroom bans from earlier this year.

How so? The Indiana governor is responsible for a law passed by the Charlotte city council in North Carolina!? 

You could argue he has less power now than being Governor of Indiana.

[zahidf]

22 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

But it's YOU that's making the biggest suggestion that there's blame for 'the darkies'.

YOU say the left has failed, and then go full steam ahead with the narrative that's failed them.

YOU are legitimising that angle, by calling it out before its happened. 

YOU are the boy crying wolf. When the wolf is in the room, no one will listen to you.

 

Im saying there is a wolf  YOUR acting like Farage and Trump arent openly racists and there is some reason to say otherwise. Is that correct?

[eFestivals]

12 minutes ago, feral chile said:

fear is an awful thing, it breeds hatred, and it leads good people to do bad things.

which applies to the bollocks zahidf is posting no differently to how it applies to Trump.

If you tell someone that half his country is out to get him, he'll be scared.

Trump suggested that Trump might be out to get 'him', but zahidf is saying Trump is VERY DEFINITELY after 'him'.

It leaves no room for anything but hatred and war.

And all because zahidf insists that something is true that isn't true.

[zahidf]

8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

which applies to the bollocks zahidf is posting no differently to how it applies to Trump.

If you tell someone that half his country is out to get him, he'll be scared.

Trump suggested that Trump might be out to get 'him', but zahidf is saying Trump is VERY DEFINITELY after 'him'.

It leaves no room for anything but hatred and war.

And all because zahidf insists that something is true that isn't true.

What part of Trumps public statements, character and behaviour, as well as the record of his running mate on gay conversion camps and trans rights makes you think how he would mistreat minorities is a 'maybe'?

He is very open about what he wants to do. You are assuming he will moderate. He never did in the campaign and won

Edited November 10, 2016 by zahidf

[eFestivals]

13 minutes ago, feral chile said:

As I see it, you have people voting for brexit, and presumably for Trump, partly for economic reasons, and for at the very least borderline racist reasons, certainly with brexit, i'm hearing a lot about what amounts to keeping 'our' resources for 'ourselves'.

How you 'see it' isn't necessarily true.

Yes, some people voted racist, and some people voted for their wallet, but you've wrapped the two together when they're not necessarily together.

If you invent your own truth it doesn't make it fact.

I presume, quite reasonably, that Boris and Gove and Davis aren't racists - and I certainly don't think they were voting for their own already-stuffed-full wallets - so those three at least had different reasons. Are they the only three in the country with different reasons to the racist meme that zahidf wants everyone to believe as true?

If 'the left' goes into the next election saying 'all brexiters are racists' when they're clearly not, how do you think the support for that line might go? The likes of zahidf will dive right in, while everyone else will be thinking "I know that's not true, so i can't support that".

It doesn't get us closer to a better world, it takes us further away.

A similar utterly stupid line around a similar nutty theme would be to say 'all indy-supporting Scots hate the English'. Perhaps some thought about that might have you realise how mindnumbingly stupid it is to wrap everyone up as a mono-thought?

'The left' has spent the last 40+ years condemning *EXACTLY* the sort of generalizations that now come as standard from many of the same people. And these people call the others 'stupid'?

 

[michael eavis' beard]

2 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Just to note many non white people made a democratic choice to vote trump or stay at home.

Which both point to what this election was really about.  And how both parties completely missed where the nation is.

Trump got a higher percentage of the black, Hispanic and Asian vote than Romney did.  If people boil it down to 'how can these people vote for a racist' then that can't be explained.  But if you look at the exit polls it's obvious that this wasn't the thing that was driving people to the polls. 

The 'stay away' factor says a lot too.  Obama pretty much wiped the floor with McCain in '08 and Romney in '12 but both McCain and Romney got more votes than Clinton did this time round.

[eFestivals]

22 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Why do you feel the need to call them darkies out of interest? Just to note many non white people made a democratic choice to vote trump or stay at home.

because he wants to push his own racist line that's as abhorrent as anything Trump pushed.

 

[pink_triangle]

18 minutes ago, feral chile said:

 

voting in someone who's preaching hate because they promise tax cuts would be unacceptable in my view, if that's what you're defending.

 

What I'm defending is the right for people to have different political views than myself without necessarily being an evil person. I think some people live in a bubble where they are only friends from people with similar persuasions, only access media they agree with and get a warped view of the other side.

Unless you agree with 0 or 100% tax (which very few people do) then there is always debate to be had whether to move up or down and a person who thinks down is not necessarily selfish. Too often people on here oversimplify things you are either left or right and whichever you choose you think exactly the same about every issue and anyone who thinks the opposite is bad.

When people made the trump Clinton decision they would have weighed up many factors and come to a decision. I would have voted Clinton but respect that honorable people may have made a different decision.

[eFestivals]

14 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Im saying there is a wolf  YOUR acting like Farage and Trump arent openly racists and there is some reason to say otherwise. Is that correct?

Care to show me where I've said Farage and Trump haven't been racist?

When you have to support your own argument with lies, you're not different to Trump.

[pink_triangle]

24 minutes ago, zahidf said:

'This ticket will make gay conversion camps more likely but promises a tax cut'

 

'A tax cut you say...'

'This ticket will ban muslims from coming into the country but promises a tax cut'

 

'A tax cut you say'...

And so on.

Firstly I don't believe Trump will do either. Again you are oversimplifying and many people can support tax cuts and not believe things. Not everyone who disagrees with you is a bad person, yet if too many preach like you , the left will become a fringe but with a warm fuzzy feeling about how moral they are.

[zahidf]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

How you 'see it' isn't necessarily true.

Yes, some people voted racist, and some people voted for their wallet, but you've wrapped the two together when they're not necessarily together.

If you invent your own truth it doesn't make it fact.

I presume, quite reasonably, that Boris and Gove and Davis aren't racists - and I certainly don't think they were voting for their own already-stuffed-full wallets - so those three at least had different reasons. Are they the only three in the country with different reasons to the racist meme that zahidf wants everyone to believe as true?

If 'the left' goes into the next election saying 'all brexiters are racists' when they're clearly not, how do you think the support for that line might go? The likes of zahidf will dive right in, while everyone else will be thinking "I know that's not true, so i can't support that".

It doesn't get us closer to a better world, it takes us further away.

A similar utterly stupid line around a similar nutty theme would be to say 'all indy-supporting Scots hate the English'. Perhaps some thought about that might have you realise how mindnumbingly stupid it is to wrap everyone up as a mono-thought?

'The left' has spent the last 40+ years condemning *EXACTLY* the sort of generalizations that now come as standard from many of the same people. And these people call the others 'stupid'?

 

Boris voted Leave for his own career: he never thought it wpuld win.

 

Davis and Gove want to destroy the EU. They are fairly open about it.

If you vote for a racist leader, but say it was for another reason, you are saying 'Im not racist, but racism is fine'.

 

I asked above, are you saying Farage and Trump arent racist/didnt run racist campaign? Do you think Trump meant it when he said he would grabs pussy without a woman's permission? 

[zahidf]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Care to show me where I've said Farage and Trump haven't been racist?

When you have to support your own argument with lies, you're not different to Trump.

So they are racist, but people who voted for them are ok to not care about putting people like that in the driving seat.

Gotcha

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, zahidf said:

What part of Trumps public statements, character and behaviour, as well as the record of his running mate on gay conversion camps and trans rights makes you think how he would mistreat minorities is a 'maybe'?

Because he's shown he's got more brain than you're showing you have.

There's what a politician says to get power, and then there's what a politician does when they get power. EVERY politician says things they have no intention of doing.

You're concentrating on what was just a tiny bit of Trump's campaign, and saying it's everything of Trump AND his supporters.

 

7 minutes ago, zahidf said:

He is very open about what he wants to do. You are assuming he will moderate. He never did in the campaign and won

you're assuming he'll go much further than anything he said.

I'm assuming fuck all. I'm saying the proof will be in the actions he takes.

If he follows thru then that's the time to take to the streets. 

In the meantime, you're everything the same as Trump, using big-bollocks rhetoric to try and convince people of a lie.

[zahidf]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Because he's shown he's got more brain than you're showing you have.

There's what a politician says to get power, and then there's what a politician does when they get power. EVERY politician says things they have no intention of doing.

You're concentrating on what was just a tiny bit of Trump's campaign, and saying it's everything of Trump AND his supporters.

 

you're assuming he'll go much further than anything he said.

I'm assuming fuck all. I'm saying the proof will be in the actions he takes.

If he follows thru then that's the time to take to the streets. 

In the meantime, you're everything the same as Trump, using big-bollocks rhetoric to try and convince people of a lie.

Ok we will see then. Taking to the streets when its too late again seems too close to 1930 for comfort, but i guess we have to think about the economically anxious first

 

I guess ill be able to scream 'I told you so' before we fall into the Brexit/Trump abyss

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Boris voted Leave for his own career: he never thought it wpuld win.

 

Davis and Gove want to destroy the EU. They are fairly open about it.

Is that you saying, after all you've said, that not everyone who voted brexit was a racist after all?

Clarity from you on this would be good, and an end to the bollocks you keep insisting is true when it's not (as you've just admitted).

 

5 minutes ago, zahidf said:

If you vote for a racist leader, but say it was for another reason, you are saying 'Im not racist, but racism is fine'.

Oh ffs.

I take it you've agreed with every last morsel of the policies of the party you vote for?

No? Then you've just proven yourself wrong.

Again.

 

5 minutes ago, zahidf said:

I asked above, are you saying Farage and Trump arent racist/didnt run racist campaign?

There were elements of racism within both campaigns. There was more to both campaigns - and the support for them - than racism.

What are you finding so fucking difficult to understand?

If someone wanted out of the EU but didn't want racism, how do you suggest they vote? Which of their two wants do they have to give up, IYO?

 

5 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Do you think Trump meant it when he said he would grabs pussy without a woman's permission? 

I've no idea.  I do know that some stupid men talk to other men in a way they'd never act.

And I also know that most people who will have voted for Trump will have rejected that as anything good or acceptable - and which wasn't anything of Trump's campaign, it should be pointed out - but still found Trump's overall offering more appealing than they did Clinton's.

So come on then, tell us all how you've voted since you've been able to vote, so we can accuse you of being a supporter of an attached nasty (cos every campaign has something nasty).