US Presidential Election 2016

[feral chile]

I think we're all guilty of oversimplifying this.

I think what we've got, is someone winning power by being able to point the finger at others. So they're providing people with hope of a better life, if only we got rid of the problem, whether that problem is the EU, the Mexican border, Muslims, immigrants, benefits claimants, etc. etc. etc.

it basically boils down to competition for resources, and the majority fighting for scraps, while the elite minority pull our strings.

it does remind me of Nazi Germany, where Hitler stirred up people using the jews as a scapegoat for all Germany's ills, and led them to atrocity by the promise of a better life for everyone else, once the 'problem' had been dealt with.

now, I'm not suggesting the West is heading for another Final Solution, but I'm uneasy about where despair, alienation and fear are leading people.

And some of those doing the leading are bigots of various descriptions.

The British Empire was built on slavery and exploitation. All this 'taking back control' stuff makes me ill.

[feral chile]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

Is that you saying, after all you've said, that not everyone who voted brexit was a racist after all?

Clarity from you on this would be good, and an end to the bollocks you keep insisting is true when it's not (as you've just admitted).

 

Oh ffs.

I take it you've agreed with every last morsel of the policies of the party you vote for?

No? Then you've just proven yourself wrong.

Again.

 

There were elements of racism within both campaigns. There was more to both campaigns - and the support for them - than racism.

What are you finding so fucking difficult to understand?

If someone wanted out of the EU but didn't want racism, how do you suggest they vote? Which of their two wants do they have to give up, IYO?

 

I've no idea.  I do know that some stupid men talk to other men in a way they'd never act.

And I also know that most people who will have voted for Trump will have rejected that as anything good or acceptable - and which wasn't anything of Trump's campaign, it should be pointed out - but still found Trump's overall offering more appealing than they did Clinton's.

So come on then, tell us all how you've voted since you've been able to vote, so we can accuse you of being a supporter of an attached nasty (cos every campaign has something nasty). 

 

 

Maybe isolationist might be a better description than racist.

the Uk and USA have become more nationalist, it's not something you usually defend.

[eFestivals]

13 minutes ago, zahidf said:

So they are racist, but people who voted for them are ok to not care about putting people like that in the driving seat.

Gotcha

I know some people with some heinous and 'unusual' religious beliefs, including the subjugation of women. 

How can anyone - perhaps you, even? (:P) - support that bollocks?

Might it be because they can find something else appealing within it? Or is it because they believe and want every last morsel?

Perhaps you'd like to start with some condemnation of some famous actors?

[feral chile]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Is that you saying, after all you've said, that not everyone who voted brexit was a racist after all?

Clarity from you on this would be good, and an end to the bollocks you keep insisting is true when it's not (as you've just admitted).

 

Oh ffs.

I take it you've agreed with every last morsel of the policies of the party you vote for?

No? Then you've just proven yourself wrong.

Again.

 

There were elements of racism within both campaigns. There was more to both campaigns - and the support for them - than racism.

What are you finding so fucking difficult to understand?

If someone wanted out of the EU but didn't want racism, how do you suggest they vote? Which of their two wants do they have to give up, IYO?

 

I've no idea.  I do know that some stupid men talk to other men in a way they'd never act.

And I also know that most people who will have voted for Trump will have rejected that as anything good or acceptable - and which wasn't anything of Trump's campaign, it should be pointed out - but still found Trump's overall offering more appealing than they did Clinton's.

So come on then, tell us all how you've voted since you've been able to vote, so we can accuse you of being a supporter of an attached nasty (cos every campaign has something nasty). 

 

 

While I don't want to fuel an overreaction, I don't think the fact that racist and sexist propaganda has been dismissed as irrelevant is a good thing.

at least all the Owen Smith and Jackie Walker stuff was met with outrage.

[zahidf]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Is that you saying, after all you've said, that not everyone who voted brexit was a racist after all?

Clarity from you on this would be good, and an end to the bollocks you keep insisting is true when it's not (as you've just admitted).

 

Oh ffs.

I take it you've agreed with every last morsel of the policies of the party you vote for?

No? Then you've just proven yourself wrong.

Again.

 

There were elements of racism within both campaigns. There was more to both campaigns - and the support for them - than racism.

What are you finding so fucking difficult to understand?

If someone wanted out of the EU but didn't want racism, how do you suggest they vote? Which of their two wants do they have to give up, IYO?

 

I've no idea.  I do know that some stupid men talk to other men in a way they'd never act.

And I also know that most people who will have voted for Trump will have rejected that as anything good or acceptable - and which wasn't anything of Trump's campaign, it should be pointed out - but still found Trump's overall offering more appealing than they did Clinton's.

So come on then, tell us all how you've voted since you've been able to vote, so we can accuse you of being a supporter of an attached nasty (cos every campaign has something nasty). 

 

 

Id say racism was a big enough part of the campaign that ignoring it certainly makes me wary of a Trump supporter.

I'll amend to racist or stupid on brexit. A very small percentage may have been misinformed or playing games on the issue. Not every brexit supporter is racist, but every racist voted for Brexit. If thats the company you want to keep...

[zahidf]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I know some people with some heinous and 'unusual' religious beliefs, including the subjugation of women. 

How can anyone - perhaps you, even? (:P) - support that bollocks?

Might it be because they can find something else appealing within it? Or is it because they believe and want every last morsel?

Perhaps you'd like to start with some condemnation of some famous actors?

Do they give power to people with those beliefs when they openly state them and say they will act on it?

[zahidf]

Trump supporters already celebrating

 

[feral chile]

2 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Id say racism was a big enough part of the campaign that ignoring it certainly makes me wary of a Trump supporter.

I'll amend to racist or stupid on brexit. A very small percentage may have been misinformed or playing games on the issue. Not every brexit supporter is racist, but every racist voted for Brexit. If thats the company you want to keep...

Some people are stupid, some are just desperate for change.

The answer is to help the people who are suffering, and that disempowers those who can exploit their need for hope.

[Lad]

The transatlantic snowflakes protesting-which they've got every right to do in a free society.They're apparently scared,like the racist on here,about Trump's election.They are entitled to their views even if seem to be a similar entitled bunch we've seen demonstrating in the UK.

 

For a community who might have more reason to be scared I'd look at areas of Chicago . 645 murders up to now (November figures) with 78 in August alone.I used Chicago because it's Obama's power Base. He's been president for 8 years so you'd hope that he'd have some sway to improve these stats . But why be concerned about this slo mo war and all the many young deaths when there are more important political agendas to meet?Racism in action.

[pink_triangle]

22 minutes ago, zahidf said:

So they are racist, but people who voted for them are ok to not care about putting people like that in the driving seat.

Gotcha

What if people hate racism, but also morally object to Clintons views/previous votes on issues related to war. What is an acceptable moral way to vote in a 2 horse race.

[feral chile]

2 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

What if people hate racism, but also morally object to Clintons views/previous votes on issues related to war. What is an acceptable moral way to vote in a 2 horse race.

I'd probably abstain.

but there again, if you had an anti-war candidate, wouldn't they be 'unelectable'?

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, feral chile said:

I think we're all guilty of oversimplifying this.

Some of us are attempting to not fall into that trap.

Others are diving straight in.

 

4 minutes ago, feral chile said:

I think what we've got, is someone winning power by being able to point the finger at others.

That's one way of looking at it.

Another way of looking at it might be to say they pointed their finger at problems at some level.

For example, look back on what russy posted today of what Trump really said about Mexicans (rather than what zahidf might want you to believe he said).

I'm certainly not commending Trump for what he said, but what he said was clever enough to create a divide of good and bad, rather than simply 'Mexican = bad'. It gives people the intellectual room to push aside the part of it they might not much like, because no one likes the 'bad' he made the major part. 

It ended being about a wall to keep the 'bad' Mexicans out - just the 'bad' Mexicans - and who wants to let the bad people into their country? No one. 

 

4 minutes ago, feral chile said:

So they're providing people with hope of a better life, if only we got rid of the problem, whether that problem is the EU, the Mexican border, Muslims, immigrants, benefits claimants, etc. etc. etc

Nope, it was subtler than that.

It wasn't about keeping Mexicans and Muslims out, it was about keeping 'bad' Mexicans and Muslims out.

There's 'bad' that exists in any grouping, and who wants the 'bad'? No one.

 

4 minutes ago, feral chile said:

it basically boils down to competition for resources, and the majority fighting for scraps, while the elite minority pull our strings.

Same as it ever was - and same as Labour are, and Clinton was, too. 

There's nothing unique about Trump or Brexit in that.

It's merely your own take on yourself, where you put yourself on the higher moral ground, that has you believing that applies to 'them' but not you. You're doing 'the other' just as well as Trump ever did.

 

4 minutes ago, feral chile said:

it does remind me of Nazi Germany, where Hitler stirred up people using the jews as a scapegoat for all Germany's ills, and led them to atrocity by the promise of a better life for everyone else, once the 'problem' had been dealt with.

Because calling tories 'the other' is nothing similar?

Or zahidf's version, of making all - not some, *ALL* - brexiers or Trump voters 'the other' is something different to what Trump or Farage did?

 

 

4 minutes ago, feral chile said:

now, I'm not suggesting the West is heading for another Final Solution, but I'm uneasy about where despair, alienation and fear are leading people.

Some take the simple answer of blaming 'the other'.

Those who blame tories for all their ills are no less guilty.

[feral chile]

ok I know not an unbiased source:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/its-not-melodramatic-to-fear-for-our-safety-after-this-election_us_5823831ce4b0d9ce6fc08f1c?

[russycarps]

21 minutes ago, feral chile said:

I think we're all guilty of oversimplifying this.

I think what we've got, is someone winning power by being able to point the finger at others. So they're providing people with hope of a better life, if only we got rid of the problem, whether that problem is the EU, the Mexican border, Muslims, immigrants, benefits claimants, etc. etc. etc.

it basically boils down to competition for resources, and the majority fighting for scraps, while the elite minority pull our strings.

it does remind me of Nazi Germany, where Hitler stirred up people using the jews as a scapegoat for all Germany's ills, and led them to atrocity by the promise of a better life for everyone else, once the 'problem' had been dealt with.

now, I'm not suggesting the West is heading for another Final Solution, but I'm uneasy about where despair, alienation and fear are leading people.

And some of those doing the leading are bigots of various descriptions.

The British Empire was built on slavery and exploitation. All this 'taking back control' stuff makes me ill.

all these nazi comparisons are just daft. germany was absolutely shafted when hitler rose to power. America is in nothing like the same position. 

 

[eFestivals]

18 minutes ago, feral chile said:

While I don't want to fuel an overreaction, I don't think the fact that racist and sexist propaganda has been dismissed as irrelevant is a good thing.

at least all the Owen Smith and Jackie Walker stuff was met with outrage.

Oh FFS.

Who is dismissing it as irrelevant? 

What i'm dismissing is the self-righteous bollocks of all bad is over there and all good is me.

The over-reaction is yours as much as anyone else's, by that binary black/white take on things.

[pink_triangle]

8 minutes ago, feral chile said:

I'd probably abstain.

but there again, if you had an anti-war candidate, wouldn't they be 'unelectable'?

If you abstain it doesn't stop the fact one of the 2 get in, it just leaves the choice to others. I think anti war at all costs would be a problem, but being anti the iraq war helped Obama 

[eFestivals]

16 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Trump supporters already celebrating

 

because all of those assaulted people emailed just him?

When you fail to spot a lie, you're a Trump supporter.

 

[feral chile]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

Some of us are attempting to not fall into that trap.

Others are diving straight in.

 

That's one way of looking at it.

Another way of looking at it might be to say they pointed their finger at problems at some level.

For example, look back on what russy posted today of what Trump really said about Mexicans (rather than what zahidf might want you to believe he said).

I'm certainly not commending Trump for what he said, but what he said was clever enough to create a divide of good and bad, rather than simply 'Mexican = bad'. It gives people the intellectual room to push aside the part of it they might not much like, because no one likes the 'bad' he made the major part. 

It ended being about a wall to keep the 'bad' Mexicans out - just the 'bad' Mexicans - and who wants to let the bad people into their country? No one. 

 

Nope, it was subtler than that.

It wasn't about keeping Mexicans and Muslims out, it was about keeping 'bad' Mexicans and Muslims out.

There's 'bad' that exists in any grouping, and who wants the 'bad'? No one.

 

Same as it ever was - and same as Labour are, and Clinton was, too. 

There's nothing unique about Trump or Brexit in that.

It's merely your own take on yourself, where you put yourself on the higher moral ground, that has you believing that applies to 'them' but not you. You're doing 'the other' just as well as Trump ever did.

 

Because calling tories 'the other' is nothing similar?

Or zahidf's version, of making all - not some, *ALL* - brexiers or Trump voters 'the other' is something different to what Trump or Farage did?

 

 

Some take the simple answer of blaming 'the other'.

Those who blame tories for all their ills are no less guilty.

It's not the tories I blame as such, it's the inequality.

No mainstream party tackles it, maybe it can't be tackled without dismantling the whole infrastructure.

While that inequality is there, it's not really parliament who runs the country, and this is why people are disillusioned with mainstream politics.

I think I get why, I just don't think what they've done has changed anything, just made things 100 times worse.

[feral chile]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Oh FFS.

Who is dismissing it as irrelevant? 

What i'm dismissing is the self-righteous bollocks of all bad is over there and all good is me.

The over-reaction is yours as much as anyone else's, by that binary black/white take on things.

erm, presumably the people who voted for trump? They either agreed with him or thought other issues were more important.

[eFestivals]

21 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Id say racism was a big enough part of the campaign that ignoring it certainly makes me wary of a Trump supporter.

So they're not all evil personified after all, and now you only need to be wary of them, because they're not necessarily going to drive 'the darkies' into the sea after all?

It's progress, i guess.

 

21 minutes ago, zahidf said:

I'll amend to racist or stupid on brexit. A very small percentage may have been misinformed or playing games on the issue. Not every brexit supporter is racist, but every racist voted for Brexit. If thats the company you want to keep...

Oh, back to making up lies and posting it as truth again.

Your name is Donald and I claim my five pounds dollars.

 

[feral chile]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

So they're not all evil personified after all, and now you only need to be wary of them, because they're not necessarily going to drive 'the darkies' into the sea after all?

It's progress, i guess.

 

Oh, back to making up lies and posting it as truth again.

Your name is Donald and I claim my five pounds dollars.

 

There ae some ultra conservative elements in the US though. Have you been following that whole transgender use of toilets saga?

 

[eFestivals]

22 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Do they give power to people with those beliefs when they openly state them and say they will act on it?

I don't know, do you? 

I notice you chose not to condemn those famous actors. Why are you giving the sexist nutters a free pass?

Not all religious are sexist, but all...? (we both know what we're talking about here) are sexist. And they have your support.

Want to give me your own get out of jail card of nuances, where you accept some of it and reject other parts?

How come nothing of your own thinking can apply elsewhere?

That high moral ground you're stood on? This is what it is.

http://www.perou.co.uk/photos/2085.jpg

[pink_triangle]

33 minutes ago, feral chile said:

I think we're all guilty of oversimplifying this.

 

Feral my views are that not all trump voters are racist, not all right wingers are terrible people and not all people who support tax cuts are immoral. How am I oversimplifying?

[eFestivals]

25 minutes ago, Lad said:

The transatlantic snowflakes protesting

have you bought your ticket on the snowflake express for 4th December yet?

 

25 minutes ago, Lad said:

For a community who might have more reason to be scared I'd look at areas of Chicago . 645 murders up to now (November figures) with 78 in August alone.I used Chicago because it's Obama's power Base. He's been president for 8 years so you'd hope that he'd have some sway to improve these stats . But why be concerned about this slo mo war and all the many young deaths when there are more important political agendas to meet?Racism in action.

It's passed you by, I see, that he's tried all he can and that it's the raving-right nutters like you that refuse to help address it.

 

[feral chile]

6 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Feral my views are that not all trump voters are racist, not all right wingers are terrible people and not all people who support tax cuts are immoral. How am I oversimplifying?

Because non racists can do/cause racist things and validate racism.

etc. etc.
 

individual choice leads to societal consequences.

eg say I choose to pay less tax because I want a holiday.

I'm not choosing to drive a disabled person to suicide or starvation because of sanctions.

i'm just me, and I don't control the national budget.

but.......

collective and devolved responsibility, and all that.

Also, you're oversimplifying things by saying that all these people are evil, when it's really more about cultural values and validating the haters, and escalating pre0existing tensions, etc. etc.

Edited November 10, 2016 by feral chile