US Presidential Election 2016

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, LJS said:

Which candidate was campaigning for no investment, no jobs, war & corruption? I must have missed that.

Clinton was campaigning for no (new) investment and no (new) jobs.

Trump was pointing out her warring; Trump was pointing at facts that suggested corruption.

It looks like you missed an awful lot, which is probably why you're talking ignorant bollocks.

 

Quote

Well, you've accused me of it often enough....

Just as with here, to point out your own lack of logic. ;rolleyes:

 

Edited November 11, 2016 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

23 minutes ago, LJS said:

Personally, I find the notion that both candidates we're somehow equally flawed bizarre. I find it hard to believe that you think it either.

I don't have much in the way of personal opinion towards their flaws. I know a bit about both, and some flaws jump out at me more than others.

(Just to be clear, the line above is written how it is because I became aware of just how much I didn't know when I thought I did, when I started to look. See the line below for more)

What I do know, tho, are the opinions from within the USA, because i took the trouble to look. It came as a big surprise to me when i did  look to see the hatred towards Clinton even from life-long Democrats.

If you'd taken the trouble to inform yourself you'd know this too.

Instead you're trying to wing it, thinking there's a higher moral ground to be stood on when (in the eyes of the US electorate) there isn't.

 

Quote

Voters, of course have the right to make their choice. The rest of us have the right to pass an opinion on these voters & how they made their choices, a right you yourself have exercised when it suits you. 

Yep, people can call all Trump voters racist and all brexiteers racist.

And anyone with an IQ of 50 or above knows those people are 100% wrong in that view.

What's troubling you? Have you dipped under that 50?

Or do you today support the view that all indy Scots are anti-English racists? ;rolleyes:

 

Edited November 11, 2016 by eFestivals

[pink_triangle]

20 minutes ago, LJS said:

Personally, I find the notion that both candidates we're somehow equally flawed bizarre. I find it hard to believe that you think it either.

Voters, of course have the right to make their choice. The rest of us have the right to pass an opinion on these voters & how they made their choices, a right you yourself have exercised when it suits you. 

The trouble is I think we look at things through different glasses as we are British (Clinton viewed better here than the states) and we would both vote democrat.

When I look at Clinton's campaign I'm not sure what she was offering an average white male, I'm not surprised she therefore didn't get their vote.

Do you agree with me that if Obama had been allowed to stand again he would have retained some of these votes that went from Obama to Trump, which is one of the main reasons I question the whole all Trump voters are racist argument.

[feral chile]

2 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

The trouble is I think we look at things through different glasses as we are British (Clinton viewed better here than the states) and we would both vote democrat.

When I look at Clinton's campaign I'm not sure what she was offering an average white male, I'm not surprised she therefore didn't get their vote.

Do you agree with me that if Obama had been allowed to stand again he would have retained some of these votes that went from Obama to Trump, which is one of the main reasons I question the whole all Trump voters are racist argument.

Ethnic minorities can be racist against other ethnic minorities.

I'd qualify this with saying that they're condoning racism.

It's the same as neil pointed out, people treat themselves as the exception to the rule.

I've seen Englishmen on TV screaming 'Saes Mas' (English Out) at Welsh nationalist protests, I've heard anecdotes about Poles saying they wanted to send the Poles back home - the 'other' Poles.

There doesn't seem to be any kind of rationality that I can fathom behind a lot of this.

 

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

The trouble is I think we look at things through different glasses as we are British (Clinton viewed better here than the states) and we would both vote democrat.

When I look at Clinton's campaign I'm not sure what she was offering an average white male, I'm not surprised she therefore didn't get their vote.

Do you agree with me that if Obama had been allowed to stand again he would have retained some of these votes that went from Obama to Trump, which is one of the main reasons I question the whole all Trump voters are racist argument.

Yep. 

Just about all comment i've read has people say that if Michelle Obama had been the Democrat candidate she'd probably have had the biggest Presidential victory for a long time - and that was coming from both R & D voters, too.

Trump's victory is about lots of different things - just as brexit is here - but one of the stronger themes is the hatred of Clinton. Both of Trump and Clinton scored around 60% on a 'distrust' measure.

 

[lost]

15 minutes ago, feral chile said:

Ethnic minorities can be racist against other ethnic minorities.

I'd qualify this with saying that they're condoning racism.

There doesn't seem to be any kind of rationality that I can fathom behind a lot of this.

 

If we assume Mexicans in America and poles in the UK are competing for the same of jobs then what they are voting for is to reduce the labour pool and so increase competition for their skills, potentially gaining a pay rise.

Edited November 11, 2016 by lost

[feral chile]

2 minutes ago, lost said:

If we assume Mexicans in America and poles in the UK are competing for the same of jobs then what they are voting for is to reduce the labour pool and so increase competition for theirs skills and potentially gain a pay rise.

I understand the concern over resources, it's always this way when times get tough. Charity begins at homne, why are we giving money away in aid when we can't look after our own, etc. etc

It's this 'our own' bit I have difficulty with.

What I don't get is this 'ethnic minority, of which I'm a member - go home. But I can stay' type of mentality. It doesn't even make sense.

[eFestivals]

Just now, feral chile said:

Ethnic minorities can be racist against other ethnic minorities.

I'd qualify this with saying that they're condoning racism.

It's the same as neil pointed out, people treat themselves as the exception to the rule.

I've seen Englishmen on TV screaming 'Saes Mas' (English Out) at Welsh nationalist protests, I've heard anecdotes about Poles saying they wanted to send the Poles back home - the 'other' Poles.

There doesn't seem to be any kind of rationality that I can fathom behind a lot of this.

 

Protectionism.

'The left' used to be about protectionism, the antithesis of free trade. Protecting jobs, wages and conditions, from all of govt, bosses, competition, and other workers.

In more recent years 'the left' has become about what's considered 'progressive', and most specifically about the protection of minorities. The problem with that has been that in protecting those minorities those people who used to feel some protection have felt unprotected.

While what govt and bosses and (business) competition do has to be rolled with to some degree, failing to protect workers from being undercut by other workers - within the UK thru unemployment and immigration, and outside thru globalisation - is where the blame is falling.

(immigration plays another part to the undercutting, too - because that 'protection of minorities' has people [rightly or wrongly] feeling that the protection has been diverted their way)

You're calling it racist, but that's a gross and wrong over-simplification. It's definitely not about race*, it's not even really about immigration, but it's about the effect (or presumed effect) of extra people causing a degradation of lifestyles and working conditions/rewards.

(* I'm excluding the normal everyday racists that we all know do exist from that)

'The left' are being rejected as having the answers, because they're the ones who used to protect but don't now, while they've also told people who've tried to raise the impact of extra people - immigration - that they're racists, and that they're wrong when their own experience of degraded lives tells them they're not wrong about lives having been degraded.

The only answer 'the left' can currently suggest to 'the people' is that next time they'll protect them better, but 'the people' have heard it all before and no longer believe them, plus they're the biggest advocates of the very thing from which some of the problems come to exist.

The idea of putting up the walls to internalise everything as it used to be is just as flawed as everything else of course, because that better-yesterday only existed by the UK servicing the needs of the rest of the world which is no longer necessary, but people feel they've either got nothing to lose or that their own position will be spared impact from trying a different route.

[eFestivals]

16 minutes ago, lost said:

If we assume Mexicans in America and poles in the UK are competing for the same of jobs then what they are voting for is to reduce the labour pool and so increase competition for their skills, potentially gaining a pay rise.

Yep.

The protectionism I just long-winded about.

 

[russycarps]

11 minutes ago, feral chile said:

I understand the concern over resources, it's always this way when times get tough. Charity begins at homne, why are we giving money away in aid when we can't look after our own, etc. etc

It's this 'our own' bit I have difficulty with.

What I don't get is this 'ethnic minority, of which I'm a member - go home. But I can stay' type of mentality. It doesn't even make sense.

it's a case of they dont want any more to come, rather than sending the ones that are already there back.

 

[lost]

8 minutes ago, feral chile said:

 

What I don't get is this 'ethnic minority, of which I'm a member - go home. But I can stay' type of mentality. It doesn't even make sense.

Look at it this way. Ronaldo has just signed a massive contract with real Madrid. Let's say I invent a Ronaldo cloning machine and give every Spanish club 11 Ronaldo's. It's likely that he wouldn't get such a massive contract if that happens and so wont want those Ronaldo's anywhere near Spanish football even though they are genetically identical to him

[eFestivals]

11 minutes ago, feral chile said:

I understand the concern over resources, it's always this way when times get tough. Charity begins at homne, why are we giving money away in aid when we can't look after our own, etc. etc

It's this 'our own' bit I have difficulty with.

What I don't get is this 'ethnic minority, of which I'm a member - go home. But I can stay' type of mentality. It doesn't even make sense.

People tend to judge their own motivations as high minded and pure, whilst being distrustful of the motivations of others. Human nature, innit?

In normal circumstances most people intellectualise any fears away, because they don't feel damaged by being trustful in others. In a time of reasonable prosperity others can be welcomed in, because it doesn't feel like they'll take away from what's already there. In harder times when you're already losing some of what you previously had, you might feel the newbies are responsible for what you're losing.

 

[pink_triangle]

57 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

What I do know, tho, are the opinions from within the USA, because i took the trouble to look. It came as a big surprise to me when i did  look to see the hatred towards Clinton even from life-long Democrats.

If you'd taken the trouble to inform yourself you'd know this too.

 

Yes, I was also surprised how unpopular she was. I though of her is being solid  but a bit dull. However reading up before the election there was clearly apathy.

[KingPin]

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

it takes wealth away from the place that is creating that wealth.

Go on then, please tell me why it's right that ireland robs tax revenues from other EU states? Are you happy with the likes of Google, Microsoft and Apple paying fuck all tax in the UK - and costing you local services - because Ireland is having it instead (or Amazon, where Luxembourg has the tax).?

Do you think that's right and proper, or do you think tax should be collected where it's generated? Cos I happen to know of a political campaign that's largely based on the idea of other another place robbing the wealth and resources of where that campaign is based. Perhaps you know of it too? 

Taxation is immoral, so do you think any exporting company is stealing wealth?

[eFestivals]

Just now, KingPin said:

Taxation is immoral, so do you think any exporting company is stealing wealth?

Why is taxation immoral?

as you're clearly someone from the raving right, I'm sure you're quite happy with a race to the bottom living off the backs of others. Not all of us are.

[KingPin]

Just now, eFestivals said:

Why is taxation immoral?

as you're clearly someone from the raving right, I'm sure you're quite happy with a race to the bottom living off the backs of others. Not all of us are.

Because taxation is theft. How are we currently having a race to the bottom? I believe in individualism, and I think that competition is our greatest weapon for progress as a civilisation, if one country is offer more competitive terms for business then they have the right to experience the progress that a strong economy provides.

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, KingPin said:

Because taxation is theft.

as i said, you're of the raving right.

 

6 minutes ago, KingPin said:

How are we currently having a race to the bottom? I believe in individualism, and I think that competition is our greatest weapon for progress as a civilisation, if one country is offer more competitive terms for business then they have the right to experience the progress that a strong economy provides.

competition on doing something is competition.

Undercutting of tax rates to steal the taxation adds no value to the world, and is theft of the efforts of others. It's as much living off the backs of others as it's possible to be.

After all, if taxation is theft because it's stealing the efforts of others, then the stealing of that tax base is the same thing but squared.

[feral chile]

26 minutes ago, KingPin said:

Because taxation is theft. How are we currently having a race to the bottom? I believe in individualism, and I think that competition is our greatest weapon for progress as a civilisation, if one country is offer more competitive terms for business then they have the right to experience the progress that a strong economy provides.

25 minutes ago, KingPin said:

Because taxation is theft. How are we currently having a race to the bottom? I believe in individualism, and I think that competition is our greatest weapon for progress as a civilisation, if one country is offer more competitive terms for business then they have the right to experience the progress that a strong economy provides.

Oh goody lets do away with it then.

And the whole useless infrastructure that goes with it.

Good luck with that.

 

[russycarps]

26 minutes ago, KingPin said:

Because taxation is theft. How are we currently having a race to the bottom? I believe in individualism, and I think that competition is our greatest weapon for progress as a civilisation, if one country is offer more competitive terms for business then they have the right to experience the progress that a strong economy provides.

this has to be a wind up. Surely no one is this thick, are they?

 

[zahidf]

 

 

 

 

 

But hey, this is all minor small stuff. Even if there is a small increase in sexual assault and racial attacks, its a small price to pay. Like with Brexit, we have to pander to the cultural and economic anxiety caused by the erosiom of white male dominance. If you complain about this shift in the culture of society, you are either a) making it up or b ) ignoring the real pain of people who vote for bigots.

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, zahidf said:

But hey, this is all minor small stuff. Even if there is a small increase in sexual assault and racial attacks, its a small price to pay. Like with Brexit, we have to pander to the cultural and economic anxiety caused by the erosiom of white male dominance. If you complain about this shift in the culture of society, you are either a) making it up or b ) ignoring the real pain of people who vote for bigots.

First off, do you want to get something straight?

Yesterday according to you, these sorts of actions are approved of and endorsed by Trump who is running a full-on Nazi regime.

Is that true, or not?

 

Edited November 11, 2016 by eFestivals

[The Nal]

"So one of my students aunts had to go pick up her daughter from school today because a boy w*nked off all over her clothes. When asked why, he said that if a president can do it , I can too". Day 7000

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, The Nal said:

"So one of my students aunts had to go pick up her daughter from school today because a boy w*nked off all over her clothes. When asked why, he said that if a president can do it , I can too". Day 7000

 

[zahidf]

8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

First off, do you want to get something straight?

Yesterday according to you, these sorts of actions are approved of and endorsed by Trump who is running a full-on Nazi regime.

Is that true, or not?

 

I doubt Trump will be losing sleep over it. 

[eFestivals]

that Shaun King sure does get around. Yesterday he'd personally received hundreds of emails about trump endorsed racist violence.

Hey zahidf, maybe take a peek ? 

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/nov/10/facebook-fake-news-election-conspiracy-theories

(note: it only works if you turn the grey stuff on)

It's not only Trump who plays people, and it's not only Trumpers who are stupid enough to get played.

Edited November 11, 2016 by eFestivals