US Presidential Election 2016

[feral chile]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I'm pointing out that Trump the racist radical has appointed :-

1. a black man.

2. a republican party insider, as establishment as it gets.

These things are just as true as his views on sexuality, tho they're a little awkward for the previous narratives.

HE created the narratives!

Come on Neil.

You gave me a massive hard tim e once for saying I supported women's choice over what they did with their own bodies, even if it was to pose on page 3.

You said I was denying the existence of the patriarchy, and refusing to accept the inherent sexism in society that this condoned.

now here you are, arguing the exact opposite when it comes to race.

Edited November 11, 2016 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, LJS said:

No one has claimed it's the end of the world. as usual you exaggerate the views of those you oppose. It's boring & a bit pathetic

zahidf was saying *ALL* of the people who voted for Trump were motivated *ONLY* by racism. That's no exaggeration.

He then went on to give examples of what he was suggesting as the new normal, with full social acceptability.

It's as idiotic as anything Trump has said, and risks becoming as dangerous.

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, feral chile said:

HE created the narratives!

He created a different narrative - a number of different narratives - to the one that some here wish to portray.

No one seems to much believe the things he said about building a wall and having the Mexicans pay for it are true, or that he'll create jobs, or bring manufacturing back, etc, etc, yet for some reason a couple of outrageous lines said just once and a long time ago in the campaign HAVE TO define everything about him and are a certainty for what he'll do.

He's already showing that much of what he said was bollocks by appointing a black man and an establishment republican figure.

Yep, he's going to do republican-type things, and they'll not all be nice.

But that's not him putting on jackboots.

Edited November 11, 2016 by eFestivals

[feral chile]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

zahidf was saying *ALL* of the people who voted for Trump were motivated *ONLY* by racism. That's no exaggeration.

He then went on to give examples of what he was suggesting as the new normal, with full social acceptability.

It's as idiotic as anything Trump has said, and risks becoming as dangerous.

what do you define as racist? You know full well it can be very subtle.

I would certainly never claim to be free of racism, though I would claim to try not to be a hater.

If trump had been saying this about the Jewish population, there would have been uproar, and rightly so.

we all know that much more innocuous comments have raised moral outrage and accusations of anti-Semitism when Corbyn's concerned.

Now, you and pink triangle both denied that this was politically motivated, and corbyn supporters were anti-Semitic, for saying far less extreme things, and thought corbyn should denounce them.

so why are you being so pragmatic now?

[feral chile]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

He created a different narrative - a number of different narratives - to the one that some here wish to portray.

No one seems to much believe the things he said about building a wall and having the Mexicans pay for it are true, yet for some reason a couple of outrageous lines said just once and a long time ago in the campaign HAVE TO define everything about him and are a certainty for what he'll do.

He's already showing that much of what he said was bollocks by appointing a black man and an establishment republican figure.

Yep, he's going to do republican-type things, and they'll not all be nice.

But that's not him putting on jackboots.

to be fair, you were fairly pragmatic about Jackie walker, and I agreed with you there.

But nobody voted her PM or president - not that she said anything anywhere near as vitriolic.

she's just annoying.

[zahidf]

 

[LJS]

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

zahidf was saying *ALL* of the people who voted for Trump were motivated *ONLY* by racism. That's no exaggeration.

 

Yes it is. in fact it's worse than an exaggeration ....it's a downright lie.

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

He then went on to give examples of what he was suggesting as the new normal, with full social acceptability.

Sorry, I don't understand that. are you trying to say he posted some tweets?

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

It's as idiotic as anything Trump has said, and risks becoming as dangerous.

Except zahidf is not the president of the USA which I would suggest limits the danger he can cause a wee bit. 

In fact I'd go as far as saying that expressing your freely held views on your fine website poses no danger to anyone anywhere whatsoever.

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, feral chile said:

what do you define as racist? You know full well it can be very subtle.

I would certainly never claim to be free of racism, though I would claim to try not to be a hater.

I think myself much like you.

Referring back to what zahidf was getting at tho, it was a deliberate thing, the one driving factor. It was the only reason anyone might have voted for Trump.

 

4 minutes ago, feral chile said:

If trump had been saying this about the Jewish population, there would have been uproar, and rightly so.

Like it or not, American Jews are well embedded in the establishment in a way that other minorities are not. That difference would cause a difference in establishment response no matter how hard that establishment might try to be fair and even with responses. It also has the history of the holocaust (and how culturally embedded that this) to help drive responses

I'm not defending what Trump said.

I was saying back at zahidf that there was more to Trump's victory than the racism he was claiming as the only factor.

 

4 minutes ago, feral chile said:

we all know that much more innocuous comments have raised moral outrage and accusations of anti-Semitism when Corbyn's concerned.

Now, you and pink triangle both denied that this was politically motivated, and corbyn supporters were anti-Semitic, for saying far less extreme things, and thought corbyn should denounce them.

so why are you being so pragmatic now?

Eh? You've lost me. I can't work out what you're cross referencing as the same.

Was anyone posting all Corbyn supporters are anti-Semitic, and that's why people supported Corbyn? I don't remember that.

 

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, zahidf said:

 

because only Trump hates....?

I'm seeing the same hatred on both sides, tho one side is far more vocal about making sure the other side knows how much its hated.

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, LJS said:

 

Yes it is. in fact it's worse than an exaggeration ....it's a downright lie.

he says with a lie.

 

[eFestivals]

10 minutes ago, zahidf said:

 

PS:

that's a mighty fine and generous offer, too, that I'm absolutely sure Trump will rush to take up.

Because I'm sure Trump is dead keen to tell the world that he fuelled his campaign with bigotry, and by implication label his own supporters as not only hateful bigots but mindless with it.

Which is why I'm trying to point out that this type of stuff isn't helpful.

 

[zahidf]

 

[feral chile]

30 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I think myself much like you.

Referring back to what zahidf was getting at tho, it was a deliberate thing, the one driving factor. It was the only reason anyone might have voted for Trump.

 

Like it or not, American Jews are well embedded in the establishment in a way that other minorities are not. That difference would cause a difference in establishment response no matter how hard that establishment might try to be fair and even with responses. It also has the history of the holocaust (and how culturally embedded that this) to help drive responses

I'm not defending what Trump said.

I was saying back at zahidf that there was more to Trump's victory than the racism he was claiming as the only factor.

 

Eh? You've lost me. I can't work out what you're cross referencing as the same.

Was anyone posting all Corbyn supporters are anti-Semitic, and that's why people supported Corbyn? I don't remember that.

 

I'm not sure if it was as blanket as that, I think it was more that corbyn condoned racist comments by not condemning them, refusing to share a platform with people who uttered them, or by espelling them from labour.

now here we have a president who's uttered far worse than Ms Walker and the other guy (the one who denied being a momentum member, and said the PLP were in league with the press - to a Jewish lady, remember?)

I know you were far more pragmatic than PT, I think we both agreed that walker had to be suspended for being loudmouthed and inappropriate, rather than overt anti-Semitism. because of the backlash.

And then we have an American being elected as leader of the free world (!) despite (being generous) much less ambiguous comments.

 

[feral chile]

I did have some level of sympathy with Jackie Walker, because of the irony of her being silenced by accusations of racism, when she tried to draw attention to racism.

 

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

zahidf was saying *ALL* of the people who voted for Trump were motivated *ONLY* by racism. That's no exaggeration.

 

 

48 minutes ago, LJS said:

 

Yes it is. in fact it's worse than an exaggeration ....it's a downright lie.

 

 

40 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

he says with a lie.

So, I thought I'd check back on what Zahidf actually said. I'd kind of naively assumed that when Neil kept telling us he had said " *ALL* of the people who voted for Trump were motivated *ONLY* by racism" he was telling the truth,

But then it occurred to me that I have often been accused by Neil of saying things I haven't actually said and there was just a chance that Neil might have slightly mis-represented what Zahidf had said.

Here's what Zahidf really said

"America voted for hatred and bigotry. For fear and contempt. They voted for a wall between them and Mexico, for the banning of muslims, for consent to sexual assault. They voted for racism, sexism, misogyny, xenophobia and homophobia in all their ugly violent forms. No fucking excuses, that's what his campaign was about. And that's what they knowingly voted for."

He also said this

"Stats show Trump was the candidate of white straight Christian men 45+ who are doing fine financially but hate immigrants. Fuck those guys."

" I'm done with being told we need to "understand" racists, or that people who voted for racism are not racists."

"Trump is a racist. 57m American voters didn't mind & voted for him anyway. Whatever that makes them, it wasn't my fucking idea and saying i contributed by not accepting their racism is not true"

"If you vote for a racist leader, but say it was for another reason, you are saying 'Im not racist, but racism is fine'."

"Id say racism was a big enough part of the campaign that ignoring it certainly makes me wary of a Trump supporter."

The third quote above is the nearest to 

"*ALL* of the people who voted for Trump were motivated *ONLY* by racism"

but for me its not saying that. The rest are pretty clear that he is criticising people for voting for a racist without stating that

" *ALL* of the people who voted for Trump were motivated *ONLY* by racism"

Zahidf may be a bit more extreme in his condemnation of Trump voters than I am but at least he is honest and passionate and doesn't twist other's words to try & support his own mealy-mouthed case.

I think an apology from Neil to Zahidf would be in order.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[feral chile]

34 minutes ago, feral chile said:

I'm not sure if it was as blanket as that, I think it was more that corbyn condoned racist comments by not condemning them, refusing to share a platform with people who uttered them, or by expelling them from labour.

now here we have a president who's uttered far worse than Ms Walker and the other guy (the one who denied being a momentum member, and said the PLP were in league with the press - to a Jewish lady, remember?)

I know you were far more pragmatic than PT, I think we both agreed that walker had to be suspended for being loudmouthed and inappropriate, rather than overt anti-Semitism. because of the backlash.

And then we have an American being elected as leader of the free world (!) despite (being generous) much less ambiguous comments.

 

couldn't edit and typo was annoying me.

[zahidf]

26 minutes ago, LJS said:

 

 

So, I thought I'd check back on what Zahidf actually said. I'd kind of naively assumed that when Neil kept telling us he had said " *ALL* of the people who voted for Trump were motivated *ONLY* by racism" he was telling the truth,

But then it occurred to me that I have often been accused by Neil of saying things I haven't actually said and there was just a chance that Neil might have slightly mis-represented what Zahidf had said.

Here's what Zahidf really said

"America voted for hatred and bigotry. For fear and contempt. They voted for a wall between them and Mexico, for the banning of muslims, for consent to sexual assault. They voted for racism, sexism, misogyny, xenophobia and homophobia in all their ugly violent forms. No fucking excuses, that's what his campaign was about. And that's what they knowingly voted for."

He also said this

"Stats show Trump was the candidate of white straight Christian men 45+ who are doing fine financially but hate immigrants. Fuck those guys."

" I'm done with being told we need to "understand" racists, or that people who voted for racism are not racists."

"Trump is a racist. 57m American voters didn't mind & voted for him anyway. Whatever that makes them, it wasn't my fucking idea and saying i contributed by not accepting their racism is not true"

"If you vote for a racist leader, but say it was for another reason, you are saying 'Im not racist, but racism is fine'."

"Id say racism was a big enough part of the campaign that ignoring it certainly makes me wary of a Trump supporter."

The third quote above is the nearest to 

"*ALL* of the people who voted for Trump were motivated *ONLY* by racism"

but for me its not saying that. The rest are pretty clear that he is criticising people for voting for a racist without stating that

" *ALL* of the people who voted for Trump were motivated *ONLY* by racism"

Zahidf may be a bit more extreme in his condemnation of Trump voters than I am but at least he is honest and passionate and doesn't twist other's words to try & support his own mealy-mouthed case.

I think an apology from Neil to Zahidf would be in order.

 

 

 

 

 

 

thanks! not holding my breath though

 

an interesting old article from 1922 with worrying reflections

 

 

[LJS]

3 minutes ago, zahidf said:

thanks! not holding my breath though

 

an interesting old article from 1922 with worrying reflections

 

 

I loved the bit about keeping his follower's "aroused" 

The Donald seemed to be keen on arousing his followers too. 

Whether they liked it or not.

 

[lost]

3 hours ago, LJS said:

This does not show that Donald supports the Klan.

"Ku Klux Klan announces Donald Trump victory parade as white supremacists celebrate nationwide"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/ku-klux-klan-parade-north-carolina-donald-trump-celebration-president-elect-white-supremacists-alt-a7410671.html

 

They hedged their bets 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/apr/26/klan-leader-claims-kkk-has-given-20k-clinton-campa/

Quote

Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign has received more than $20,000 in donations contributed by members of the Ku Klux Klan, a prominent member of the hate group said Monday.

“For the KKK, Clinton is our choice,” said Will Quigg, California Grand Dragon for the Loyal White Knights, Vocativ reported.

 

[LJS]

9 minutes ago, lost said:

 

They hedged their bets 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/apr/26/klan-leader-claims-kkk-has-given-20k-clinton-campa/

 

Not the strongest of evidence there,but do appreciate your effort in support of Donald.

[zahidf]

More economic anxiety

https://twitter.com/eiffeltyler/status/797147972379299840

 

[lost]

28 minutes ago, LJS said:

Not the strongest of evidence there,but do appreciate your effort in support of Donald.

Wasn't support, just condemning Clinton's racism equally. But yes it was confirmed in the campaign donations and she chose not to return the money.

Edited November 11, 2016 by lost

[LJS]

3 minutes ago, lost said:

Wasn't support, just condemning Clinton's racism equally. But yes it was confirmed in the campaign donations and she chose not to return the money.

How can anonymous donations be confirmed?

[lost]

1 minute ago, LJS said:

How can anonymous donations be confirmed?

When they confirm it afterwards, its no longer anonymous?

[LJS]

3 minutes ago, lost said:

When they confirm it afterwards, its no longer anonymous?

Source?