US Presidential Election 2016

[feral chile]

8 hours ago, zahidf said:

Ever wonder how people lived with slavery, Jim Crow and lynching but looked the other way? Look around right now. This is how they did it.They did it by "going on with their lives". They did it by being polite, not rocking the boat. They did it by unifying behind overt racists.

 

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Martin_Niemöller

This has traditionally been changed according to the times.

so far we've had reports of deaths linked to benefits sanctions - disabled people being left to starve or take their own lives because we don't care, they're not us. Same with EU immigrants, Mexicans, gay people, transgender people needing the toilet, all the other 'not us' groups that have been targeted or betrayed.

There are so many ways to slice groups back to the individual, but every individual has the same basic needs.

They are us. We are them.

 

Lyrics:

The future teaches you to be alone
The present to be afraid and cold
So if I can shoot rabbits then I can shoot fascists.

Bullets for your brain today
But we'll forget it all again
Monuments put from pen to paper
Turns me into a gutless wonder.

And if you tolerate this then your children will be next
And if you tolerate this then your children will be next
Will be next, Will benext, Will be next.

[eFestivals]

14 hours ago, feral chile said:

As for wanting to look out for Welsh interests, if Plaid were spouting the same stuff as Trump, there's no way I'd vote for them.

and yet it's still much the same.

All privilege to those inside the country, and no focus on those outside.

I asked you no so long ago how far your want of equality stretched, and your reply made clear that you didn't give a fuck about equality outside of the UK.

So you're quite happy to increase your privilege at the expense of others. Just like Trump.

The difference? Only the words that are used. Trump is explicit about what he'll do, while the likes of you prefer to pretend you're not wanting to do the same as (some of what) Trump says when you want to do the same.

If you're for unity and equality, there's no borders to that. As soon as you put a border, a limit, on how far your good intentions stretch and who is included within them you're no different to Trump in the effect you'll have.

This is why LJS saying he agrees with JK Rowling is laughable. He's a clear want of division and not unity, but he pretends it's not that by saying he's united with those inside the borders, so that proves his unity. He doesn't want to think about those outside that he's shitting on.

Just because it's not said doesn't mean its not there. 

Edited November 13, 2016 by eFestivals

[feral chile]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

and yet it's still much the same.

All privilege to those inside the country, and no focus on those outside.

I asked you no so long ago how far your want of equality stretched, and your reply made clear that you didn't give a fuck about equality outside of the UK.

So you're quite happy to increase your privilege at the expense of others. Just like Trump.

The difference? Only the words that are used. Trump is explicit about what he'll do, while the likes of you prefer to pretend you're not wanting to do the same as (some of what) Trump says when you want to do the same.

If you're for unity and equality, there's no borders to that. As soon as you put a border, a limit, on how far your good intentions stretch and who is included within them you're no different to Trump in the effect you'll have.

This is why LJS saying he agrees with JK Rowling is laughable. He's a clear want of division and not unity, but he pretends it's not that by saying I'm united with those inside the borders, so that proves my unity. He doesn't want to think about those outside that he's shitting on.

Just because it's not said doesn't mean its not there. 

You're twisting things. Certain sectors of society get shit on. Pointing that out isn't divisive.

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, zahidf said:

Ever wonder how people lived with slavery, Jim Crow and lynching but looked the other way? Look around right now. This is how they did it.They did it by "going on with their lives". They did it by being polite, not rocking the boat. They did it by unifying behind overt racists.

Ever wondered how people live with Western privilege and the starving to death and other things they cause but look the other way? Look around right now. That's how you did it. You did it by going on with your life. You did it by being polite, not rocking the boat. You did it by unifying behind overt racism.

But hey, only Trump and Trumpers are evil, because I don't want to think too hard.

People choose to look the other way about all sorts of issues, but that doesn't count, right? As long as my world isn't ruffled then we can keep thinking that Trump is a huge change, something different, nothing that's similar to anything I'm doing 

Me wanting my thing is pure and good and faultless, but others wanting their thing is beyond the pale.

Trump is undoubtably a bad thing, but hey, western privilege has to be upheld. My family would never have migrated here if there weren't benefits in doing so, for me to to be able to take advantage of others just as Trump might do.

Nah, let's call Neil crazy, it's just not the same right?

 

[eFestivals]

14 minutes ago, feral chile said:

 

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Martin_Niemöller

This has traditionally been changed according to the times.

so far we've had reports of deaths linked to benefits sanctions - disabled people being left to starve or take their own lives because we don't care, they're not us. Same with EU immigrants, Mexicans, gay people, transgender people needing the toilet, all the other 'not us' groups that have been targeted or betrayed.

There are so many ways to slice groups back to the individual, but every individual has the same basic needs.

They are us. We are them.

 

Lyrics:

The future teaches you to be alone
The present to be afraid and cold
So if I can shoot rabbits then I can shoot fascists.

Bullets for your brain today
But we'll forget it all again
Monuments put from pen to paper
Turns me into a gutless wonder.

And if you tolerate this then your children will be next
And if you tolerate this then your children will be next
Will be next, Will benext, Will be next.

You have privilege enough to go on holiday and to state you'd happily pay more in taxes.

And join in with the "they're not us" just as much as the govt who you think absolves you of your own responsibilities.

I'm no more perfect, but I'm not mindnumbingly stupid enough to believe that I am when my actions show differently.

[feral chile]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Ever wondered how people live with Western privilege and the starving to death and other things they cause but look the other way? Look around right now. That's how you did it. You did it by going on with your life. You did it by being polite, not rocking the boat. You did it by unifying behind overt racism.

But hey, only Trump and Trumpers are evil, because I don't want to think too hard.

People choose to look the other way about all sorts of issues, but that doesn't count, right? As long as my world isn't ruffled then we can keep thinking that Trump is a huge change, something different, nothing that's similar to anything I'm doing 

Me wanting my thing is pure and good and faultless, but others wanting their thing is beyond the pale.

Trump is undoubtably a bad thing, but hey, western privilege has to be upheld. My family would never have migrated here if there weren't benefits in doing so, for me to to be able to take advantage of others just as Trump might do.

Nah, let's call Neil crazy, it's just not the same right?

 

I agree with you about this, I don't know what we could do though.

[eFestivals]

12 minutes ago, feral chile said:

You're twisting things. Certain sectors of society get shit on. Pointing that out isn't divisive.

being the one to want to shit on those others very definitely is.

Tell me again just how much you love equality, go on.

 

[feral chile]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

You have privilege enough to go on holiday and to state you'd happily pay more in taxes.

And join in with the "they're not us" just as much as the govt who you think absolves you of your own responsibilities.

I'm no more perfect, but I'm not mindnumbingly stupid enough to believe that I am when my actions show differently.

I'm not perfect either, far from it, but that doesn't mean I should let every injustice go unobserved, Attitudes need to change first.

we don't even look after 'our own', never mind the rest of the world.

[feral chile]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

being the one to want to shit on those others very definitely is.

Tell me again just how much you love equality, go on.

 

I don't want to shit on anyone, unless that's you twisting things again.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, feral chile said:

I agree with you about this, I don't know what we could do though.

You're already doing it. 

You're taking what you believe is yours while putting aside all of the facts that prove the harm you cause.

There might be Trump voters and Clinton voters, but there is just one motivation within humanity.

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, feral chile said:

I'm not perfect either, far from it, but that doesn't mean I should let every injustice go unobserved,

but you do anyway...?

Actually, that needs no question mark, because you made it 100% clear. You couldn't even grasp what you do, your vision was so focused on you.

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, feral chile said:

we don't even look after 'our own', never mind the rest of the world.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Can you REALLY not see what it is you've just posted....? 

Your name is Donald and I claim my five pounds dollars.

When there is "our own" there is "us" and "them". 

What did you miss?

 

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, feral chile said:

I don't want to shit on anyone, unless that's you twisting things again.

You didn't want to extend your wish of equality to everyone. You stated very clearly that the privileges of your 'equality' were reserved for the chosen few.

It's ultimately just another version of what Trump offered.

Edited November 13, 2016 by eFestivals

[feral chile]

8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

You didn't want to extend your wish of equality to everyone. You stated very clearly that the privileges of your 'equality' were reserved for the chosen few.

It's ultimately just another version of what Trump offered.

Careful, you're starting to sound like Jackie Walker, and you know what happened to her.

neil, I don't disagree with you about much of what you say.

for every dominant group, there's an underdog. what plaid is trying to do is fight for the underdog. what a lot of Plaid supporters do is find a pragmatic way to get socialist policies through to as many as possible, since they can't do it for the UK, or for the world.

Maybe this is the wrong approach. Is it wrong to try to use any loophole, and wiggle room, to try to improve things for some, if you don't have the power to help everyone?

maybe it is. Maybe, though, setting an example will inspire others to do likewise.

South Wales is now a poor area, and a socialist area. I doubt the two are mutually exclusive. If we had anything of value, no doubt we'd have influential people who might not want equality. And then South Wales would no longer be a predominantly socialist area.

I don't like what's happening to my area. Instead of promoting equality, as we've always done in the past, we're turning to UKIP. There's a huge difference between Plaid and UKIP. Plaid is inclusive. Plaid has only recently wanted full independence.

I still prefer the Plaid as it was under Dafydd Wigley.

[eFestivals]

Feral, I'm not trying to pick on you, but you made it so very easy.

Trump is about trying to give Americans - *ALL* Americans (his racist comments were 100% about those who are not Americans) - the benefits of America.

He might be talking a load of bollocks and fail to deliver, but it's just another version of an individual drawing the line where any the outcome serves their selfish wants.

Yep, he said some outrageous stuff, but take a look at how it stands against reality.

Clinton was going to jail. Now she's a strong and dedicated opponent.

Obama was the worst president ever, but he's now a good man.

Trump's racist, but has appointed a black man.

Trump's an outsider, but has appointed a Republican insider (it doesn't get more inside).

There was nothing good about Obamacare, but now Trump supports its central tennets that made it a good thing.

Trump played his supporters and mugged them. And he's mugged you no less, because you think he was serious just as some of those did who supported him.

Yep, he might lean a little in actions towards the outrageous things he said, but just think back on previous republican presidential candidates and how you were also outraged by some of their plans and doings.

I don't doubt Trump will be shit, but I'd have thought that about any republican president ... and most likely Clinton too.

Just because he's going to be shit doesn't mean everything he said is certain to be what he actions. For a start it can't possibly be, because some of what he said conflicted.

He's already done enough since Wednesday morning to demonstrate his campaign words will not be what he does. And for those paying attention, that was also clear before Tuesday.

[feral chile]

19 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Can you REALLY not see what it is you've just posted....? 

Your name is Donald and I claim my five pounds dollars.

When there is "our own" there is "us" and "them". 

What did you miss?

 

'our own'?

yes I can. can you not see what I'm saying?

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, feral chile said:

what plaid is trying to do is fight for the underdog.

nope, just the underdogs which they've decided are the deserving ones.

The other underdogs remain as underdogs to slave away to provide PC's chosen few with the benefits PC wants them to take from those others.

2 minutes ago, feral chile said:

since they can't do it for the UK, or for the world

They might not be able to do it, but they're able to want to do it. 

(tho actually, they're perfectly able to try and do it for the UK - they just don't want to. Not everyone in the UK is deserving of their 'perfection' in the view of PC)

They don't, and you agree with them about that. You made that clear when I questioned you on it.

They want to pull up the borders and benefit those inside of the borders - which is Trump-ism in a nutshell, which is Farage in a nutshell, which is the SNP in a nutshell, and which is you in a nutshell.

This is where I differ. I'm no less self-centred, but my eyes are open to the world, and not only focused on 'us'.

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, feral chile said:

'our own'?

yes I can. can you not see what I'm saying?

Yep, I can see what you're saying.

And what you're saying is that some people are more deserving of equity and fairness than others - who you want no equality and fairness for.

You stated it categorically in the past, by using words that proved your vision of equality stopped at the borders.

[feral chile]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Feral, I'm not trying to pick on you, but you made it so very easy.

Trump is about trying to give Americans - *ALL* Americans (his racist comments were 100% about those who are not Americans) - the benefits of America.

He might be talking a load of bollocks and fail to deliver, but it's just another version of an individual drawing the line where any the outcome serves their selfish wants.

Yep, he said some outrageous stuff, but take a look at how it stands against reality.

Clinton was going to jail. Now she's a strong and dedicated opponent.

Obama was the worst president ever, but he's now a good man.

Trump's racist, but has appointed a black man.

Trump's an outsider, but has appointed a Republican insider (it doesn't get more inside).

There was nothing good about Obamacare, but now Trump supports its central tennets that made it a good thing.

Trump played his supporters and mugged them. And he's mugged you no less, because you think he was serious just as some of those did who supported him.

Yep, he might lean a little in actions towards the outrageous things he said, but just think back on previous republican presidential candidates and how you were also outraged by some of their plans and doings.

I don't doubt Trump will be shit, but I'd have thought that about any republican president ... and most likely Clinton too.

Just because he's going to be shit doesn't mean everything he said is certain to be what he actions. For a start it can't possibly be, because some of what he said conflicted.

He's already done enough since Wednesday morning to demonstrate his campaign words will not be what he does. And for those paying attention, that was also clear before Tuesday.

I think he just wanted to be president, for his ego. I imagine he now wants to be seen as a great president, so hopefully won't do anything to destroy his reputation.

But look at Cameron, and I thought he was fairly astute.

The point is, Trump did play his supporters. So first you have to ask what his supporters believe. And how much they now feel validated. And how much that feeling might spread, and what the impact might be.

Most powerful people will tap into people's fears, and use them to get what they want. but there are consequences other than them getting what they want.

I agree we should be doing more for all humanity. And I also know it's hard for us to imagine what life is like for others. The further away (relationally0 something is, the harder it is to get motivated by it.

I know my failings. I'm positive that I'd stand by and let people take my neighbour's family, if that would keep my family safe.

If you ask me if that's right, I'd say of course not. There's a big difference between attitudes and behaviour though. I'd put my family first.

So I agree with what your points are. What's worrying me is that we don't even have compassionate attitudes, never nmind behaviour.

[feral chile]

Just now, eFestivals said:

Yep, I can see what you're saying.

And what you're saying is that some people are more deserving of equity and fairness than others - who you want no equality and fairness for.

You stated it categorically in the past, by using words that proved your vision of equality stopped at the borders.

While you were writing this, I posted something that addresses some of what you're saying.

I don't disagree with a lot of it. My stance is that our values should promote social inclusion and equality, rather than scapegoating certain groups.

I'm well aware that human nature will mean we'll put our own interests first.

But I'm not up for justifying it with the rhetoric being used. people might get unfairly treated, but I'm not going to pretend they actually deserve it.

it's wrong.

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, feral chile said:

I imagine he now wants to be seen as a great president, so hopefully won't do anything to destroy his reputation.

No shit sherlock.

He might be (is) thinking himself far cleverer than he really is, but I really can't see him wanting himself to go down in history as Hitler 2.

Yep, he played his words fast and loose, and there's already some nasty consequences from that. Where it goes from here we'll have to see, and its not hard to see a version where he doesn't do enough to reign it back in.

But that's still going to be something different from officially sanctioned, which is the version I very definitely can't see (but zahidf says is already happening).

And, it should be noted, there's been a black president for the last 8 years, and even he's not been able to reign in the standard racist policing that happens all over the USA, so while that racist policing is very likely to continue under trump, it's very likely to have continued under Clinton too.

Much MUCH more likely than the apocalyptical stuff is just another republican president.

[eFestivals]

12 minutes ago, feral chile said:

But I'm not up for justifying it with the rhetoric being used

And nor am I - the bullshit rhetoric from both sides.

You don't stop bullshit with equal bullshit. All zahidf's bullshit will do is prove zahidf as a bullshitter, whilst making tackling the issues that Trump has caused more difficult.

[LJS]

26 minutes ago, feral chile said:

'our own'?

yes I can. can you not see what I'm saying?

Don't worry, feral, you've just been selected as the victim of Neil's mindless attacks today. He'll be back to me or zahidf soon enough.

He thinks we are too stupid to twig the flaw in his argument which can be summed up as "we're all by nature a bit selfish therefore we can't criticise the selfishness of others"

It's nonsense of course & there is a world of difference between recognising this and seeking a political path which offers the best hope of equality & fairness, or just giving into your innate selfishness when deciding your vote.

He seems to think fairness & solidarity are incapable of crossing borders.

[eFestivals]

19 minutes ago, feral chile said:

The point is, Trump did play his supporters.

But he's played others too. You, for example.

Playing the others was no less an important part of his victory. Every time someone like zahidf popped up and said anyone who found anything good within all of what Trump said was a racist, it made the good people amongst Trump's supporters less likely to swap sides.

It hardens the polarisation, it doesn't bring people together ... and it was the polarisation what won it.

[zahidf]

11 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

No shit sherlock.

He might be (is) thinking himself far cleverer than he really is, but I really can't see him wanting himself to go down in history as Hitler 2.

Yep, he played his words fast and loose, and there's already some nasty consequences from that. Where it goes from here we'll have to see, and its not hard to see a version where he doesn't do enough to reign it back in.

But that's still going to be something different from officially sanctioned, which is the version I very definitely can't see (but zahidf says is already happening).

And, it should be noted, there's been a black president for the last 8 years, and even he's not been able to reign in the standard racist policing that happens all over the USA, so while that racist policing is very likely to continue under trump, it's very likely to have continued under Clinton too.

Much MUCH more likely than the apocalyptical stuff is just another republican president.

Or, alternatively, He has been campaiging on a fascist programme, and he decides to stick with that. We dont know, and one is as possible as the other.

A few sentences now doesnt make up for months of his odious and divisive campaign.