US Presidential Election 2016

[feral chile]

10 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Not at all. I think there are many people who reject conservative principles without thinking that, I put myself in the same category.

I do however think there is a problem with many (and I think the number is growing) making negative judgements on a person's morals due to them supporting the other side. I have no problem being friends with conservatives or thinking some labour supporters are horrible people.

Well it depends what the other side has done. Trump' s a bigot.

Did you think that Welsh video was racist or complaining about racism?

[zahidf]

 

[eFestivals]

12 hours ago, LJS said:

It is pretty ridiculous to ask anyone on here to come up with a number though as you can only come up with a number if you are also coming up with numbers for national revenue and expenditure as well as predictions for growth. I would resist the notion that the number necessarily has to be lower than before. The number should be what is right for the country as a whole. 

I agree it's ridiculous to try and come up with a number, tho only because the country needs a debate about it rather than 'the left' screaming it can't be talked about.

(I do think, tho, that the likes of zahidf and feral - and i think you? - who have made statements with a clear implication that immigration is *only* a good thing need to think some more about the unlimited line they've implied)

But what that number might be is not only about the economics. If the economics is everything, care to tell me again why you support indy?

And, I think, it's fairly easy to conclude that the number should be lower than now. If the current rates weren't larger than the country was able to happily absorb we wouldn't be where we are.

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, zahidf said:

More Trump voter's economic anxiety

 

 

It's of course terrible, but these people were racists before Trump stood for election. If racists are the problem, Trump has changed nothing of American racists, they were all there already.

[LJS]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I agree it's ridiculous to try and come up with a number, tho only because the country needs a debate about it rather than 'the left' screaming it can't be talked about.

(I do think, tho, that the likes of zahidf and feral - and i think you? - who have made statements with a clear implication that immigration is *only* a good thing need to think some more about the unlimited line they've implied)

But what that number might be is not only about the economics. If the economics is everything, care to tell me again why you support indy?

And, I think, it's fairly easy to conclude that the number should be lower than now. If the current rates weren't larger than the country was able to happily absorb we wouldn't be where we are.

Just to clear things up, I do not h never have implied that unlimited immigration is a good thing. 

And of course there will be factors beyond the purely economic ones. Amongst these, sadly, will be a political calculation of what the electorate will accept. I say sadly, because the electorate has predominantly heard a one sided view which emphasises the negatives.

[zahidf]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

It's of course terrible, but these people were racists before Trump stood for election. If racists are the problem, Trump has changed nothing of American racists, they were all there already.

So, no politician can be held responsible for increases in racial attacks due their policies and rhetoric, because they are racist people in society anyway???

You know actively open racist people are a LOT worse for people of colour right? Its not just a debatong point, its a practical degradation of life caused by a LEAVE/Trump vote?

[LJS]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

It's of course terrible, but these people were racists before Trump stood for election. If racists are the problem, Trump has changed nothing of American racists, they were all there already.

If (& I say if bevause we don't know yet) trump's win has emboldened & empowered these people, then it is a problem & it's a problem created by Trump.

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, LJS said:

I don't doubt that the motivation behind keeping the refugees in Turkey is much more to do with keeping them out of the rest of Europe than a genuine concern for their welfare.

I don't doubt those are within it, but I'd still say it's a gross simplification.

Cos the strongest reasons for why Turkey and Jordan and Lebanon have the largest number of refugees is a matter of geography. They're the closest safe places from where the refugees have come from, and they're the closest points to where the refugees would like to return to should circumstances allow.

While places further away could take them, that's not what anyone wants as the best solution. They don't (as a generalisation) want a new life in the west, they want to return to their old (tho perhaps improved) lives within Syria, their home.

And, it should be pointed out, we in the UK - and particularly on 'the left' - have our own culpability here, because we're the ones that declined to take on Assad at the point where a 'good' regime might have replaced him, to instead step back to allow the situation to degenerate further where there's no good outcome likely, and to let the Russians in to do what we condemn them for.

It would have been so much better to help before these people needed the help they now need.

 

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, feral chile said:

You think anyone who rejects Conservative principles must think all Tories are evil? What about people who see all politics as part of the same corruption? 

PMSL.

"All toiries aren't evil, it's that all politicians are evil".:rolleyes:

Isn't it dreadful that the world has become so polarised feral? If only all those evil people were done away with, we can live in....

Even worse self-serving self-deluded shit.

[eFestivals]

13 minutes ago, LJS said:

Just to clear things up, I do not h never have implied that unlimited immigration is a good thing. 

I'm pretty sure you made a comment in this thread in the last few days that implied with it's wording that it was.

And then in what I replied to, you were saying whether it's good or bad is to be judged solely on the economics.

 

13 minutes ago, LJS said:

And of course there will be factors beyond the purely economic ones. Amongst these, sadly, will be a political calculation of what the electorate will accept. I say sadly, because the electorate has predominantly heard a one sided view which emphasises the negatives.

So no one has felt the negatives...?

And people aren't allowed to rightly think (for example) "Bristol has changed, and I think that's a bad thing"?

You think the change of Scottish status from being a country to being a region is a such a bad thing that you want it reversed, but others aren't permitted to regard change as bad...?

You're still dismissing people's right to hold perfectly reasonable views. Just because you might disagree with their conclusions doesn't make your view reasonable and different opinions unreasonable.

I know that there's often bullshit in the mix that has helped cause the conclusions some people might have, but that still doesn't make all different opinion to yours misguided and wrong.

[zahidf]

54 minutes ago, LJS said:

If (& I say if bevause we don't know yet) trump's win has emboldened & empowered these people, then it is a problem & it's a problem created by Trump.

The Leave vote definitely has empowered those people. (53% increase in race based attacks reported). Initial signs are Trumps win has as well.

 

Of course, thats not the fault of LEAVE and Trump voters, despite them voting for openly racist campaigns. IF they arent racist themselves, they just decided empowering racism was a price worth paying 

[pink_triangle]

28 minutes ago, zahidf said:

The Leave vote definitely has empowered those people. (53% increase in race based attacks reported). Initial signs are Trumps win has as well.

 

Of course, thats not the fault of LEAVE and Trump voters, despite them voting for openly racist campaigns. IF they arent racist themselves, they just decided empowering racism was a price worth paying 

What I hope is that any act of racism is reported (to the police and not on twitter) and is tackled by the law. Some people said that Boris when he pulled out of the leadership election had created the mess and would have to clear it up. There will be no hiding place for Trump when in power.

Your last point is over simplistic, so I can't be bothered commenting. Out of interest if the chance was there to remove him before the end of his term, would you take it knowing it would lead to president pence?

[russycarps]

We need to see if actual convictions in hate crimes match the increase in reports. 

 

 

[zahidf]

24 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

What I hope is that any act of racism is reported (to the police and not on twitter) and is tackled by the law. Some people said that Boris when he pulled out of the leadership election had created the mess and would have to clear it up. There will be no hiding place for Trump when in power.

Your last point is over simplistic, so I can't be bothered commenting. Out of interest if the chance was there to remove him before the end of his term, would you take it knowing it would lead to president pence?

Yes. Pence is terrible but has no mandate. He wont have the same rabble rousing abilities of Trump.

[eFestivals]

58 minutes ago, zahidf said:

(53% increase in race based attacks reported)

On one day.

Since back down to less than 10%.

It's not good, but it's a long way from the nazis, and no one is a racist that wasn't already a racist.

 

[zahidf]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

On one day.

Since back down to less than 10%.

It's not good, but it's a long way from the nazis, and no one is a racist that wasn't already a racist.

 

so, again, empowering racists is a reasonable price to pay for LEAVE and Trump voters

[eFestivals]

Just now, zahidf said:

so, again, empowering racists is a reasonable price to pay for LEAVE and Trump voters

Of course not.

But I don't think anyone is yet suggesting that revoking democracy would be a reasonable price to pay to not have that either.  These people exist no matter what we do, unless we become them and throw them in jail or worse because they have different views to us.

No one is saying these things should be accepted by default, but we probably do have to accept that these things might happen in trying to tread the path for the greatest good.

Do you have an alternative to accepting the democratic result?

If not, the thing to fight are the actions that come from it, rather than the result.

[pink_triangle]

31 minutes ago, russycarps said:

We need to see if actual convictions in hate crimes match the increase in reports. 

 

 

Also hopefully as well as incite racists, the campaign will also empower people to report who may not have done before. 

[Comfy Bean]

4 hours ago, eFestivals said:

You think the change of Scottish status from being a country to being a region..........

Scotland is no longer a Country ?    

I thought we were 1 of 4 countries that made up the UK ?

Apologies if I should get back in my box etc 

[Comfy Bean]

Farage seems to be playing a blinder these past days / weeks *

 

 

* I don`t think this is a good thing.

[feral chile]

5 hours ago, eFestivals said:

PMSL.

"All toiries aren't evil, it's that all politicians are evil".:rolleyes:

Isn't it dreadful that the world has become so polarised feral? If only all those evil people were done away with, we can live in....

Even worse self-serving self-deluded 

Edited November 15, 2016 by feral chile
Wont allow reply

[feral chile]

Just now, feral chile said:

 

For a start, i said what about people who believe....I didn't say  i believe.

The main problem seems to be that theyre seen as politicians and not like us.

[eFestivals]

37 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Scotland is no longer a Country ?    

I thought we were 1 of 4 countries that made up the UK ?

Apologies if I should get back in my box etc 

I thought you Scots loved to read the Act of Union?

Both versions make clear the original country ceases to exist.

[eFestivals]

33 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Farage seems to be playing a blinder these past days / weeks *

 

 

* I don`t think this is a good thing.

when people give just-him the platform to talk about immigration, he's going to take it.

Yeah, i know he's got more than a platform for just that now, but that's because people handed a platform to start from.

We can only start to take it back when we start to challenge him rather than dismiss him.

[Comfy Bean]

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

when people give just-him the platform to talk about immigration, he's going to take it.

Yeah, i know he's got more than a platform for just that now, but that's because people handed a platform to start from.

We can only start to take it back when we start to challenge him rather than dismiss him.

I agree mate.

Was just reflecting that he has made a good fist of maximising the opportunities presented to him.

Him and his party were being written off just recently. Doesn't look that way at the moment. 

As i said, not necessarily a good thing.