US Presidential Election 2016

[eFestivals]

10 minutes ago, russycarps said:

going bankrupt in america is no big deal either. It's generally a sound business decision (which shits on all the creditors, but who cares about them?)

I don't think there's much of a different view of bankruptcy here, either - at least, not within the business class. It's just as much used a s a tool to their own advantage as it might be in the US.

[The Nal]

49 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

erm ... you do know that he inherited what would be billions in today's terms, don't you?

About $900m if the $200m inheritance figure is to be believed. He inherited somewhere between 40m-200m in the early 70s. Apparently. But its of course a lot more complicated like that. Its not like he checked his bank account on the last Friday of the month and it went from zero to 200 million. 

But not even that, his old boy was guarantor on lots of early deals. He had property, stock options, shares, pieces of future deals, guarantees, unfulfilled partnerships etc etc. People that rich rarely go broke in America. Especially with their culture of credit.

Thats not the point though, he did negotiate a lot of those early deals. With his money or his old mans. Some people are trying to portray him as Bojo west which he is far from. Once he built Trump Tower he became too big to fail.

[eFestivals]

12 minutes ago, The Nal said:

About $900m if the $200m inheritance figure is to be believed. He inherited somewhere between 40m-200m in the early 70s. Apparently. But its of course a lot more complicated like that. Its not like he checked his bank account on the last Friday of the month and it went from zero to 200 million. 

But not even that, his old boy was guarantor on lots of early deals. He had property, stock options, shares, pieces of future deals, guarantees, unfulfilled partnerships etc etc. People that rich rarely go broke in America. Especially with their culture of credit.

Thats not the point though, he did negotiate a lot of those early deals. With his money or his old mans. Some people are trying to portray him as Bojo west which he is far from. Once he built Trump Tower he became too big to fail.

I don't think anyone except the zahidf types are trying hard to present him as only a failure. 

But as you've laid out, it's all a bit handed to him on a plate. There's a risk there of making Richard Branson look like he didn't benefit from a huge leg up (and paying off judges after vat fraud, hmmm).

Like Bojo - who's also had his successes, to be fair - it's all about the cossetted life and how much more clever than other people they must be to have got so far. Politics is probably going to be the first hard work Trump has done, and it's probably how he takes to that which will define how his presidency is regarded, along with what happens when his 'I want this done now' comes up against due processes and the normal political wrangling, those sorts of things.

[The Nal]

19 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

along with what happens when his 'I want this done now' comes up against due processes and the normal political wrangling, those sorts of things.

Yeah I think thats what will trip him up. He doesn't know how to play that game. He has no footing in it, no history. And it is the nastiest game of all. 

Same thing happened on the left with Jimmy Carter. He ran as the anti Washington outsider, had a majority in both houses of Congress yet his relationship with Congress was so bad he could barely get someone to fetch him a coffee for four years and he got sent packing back to his peanut farm in Georgia by The Gipper.

Any of the presidents who got shit done had excellent ties in Washington and were bullies basically. From Hoover to Eisenhower to JFK to LBJ to Nixon to Bush etc. Being a bully isn't good enough in itself.  

Edited November 24, 2016 by The Nal

[zahidf]

DRAINING THE SWAMP

 

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, The Nal said:

Being a bully isn't good enough in itself.

i'd say he's recognised that to an extent, by being happy to appoint some of his critics into particular roles. It's pretty clear he knows he needs the party establishment on-side.

I'm not sure they'll bend as far as he wants them to, tho. For them it's not a passing fad to be in politics, so somethings are going to be hard to get past them.

Edited November 24, 2016 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, zahidf said:

DRAINING THE SWAMP

It's for reasons like this I'm reasonably relaxed about Trump & Co. They're going to run up against due process and scrutiny like they won't believe, and either it will knock them into shape or they'll fuck up (like that) and get the boot or make those they need to operate with (the Republican party, particularly) more obstructive.

The worrying point of any of that will be when Trump is being refused what he wants, but this sort of stuff is great.

 

[zahidf]

Ha. The writer also told Piers morgan to fuck off on twitter, which is worth an extra point

 

[pink_triangle]

10 hours ago, zahidf said:

Hey. if he turns out to be a great president, i will put my hands up and admit my error.

 

 

 

Your mind has been made up. You will criticise what he does wrong and ignore what he does right. Forgive me if it's a case of mistaken identity, but weren't you one of the people very vocal about Ched Evans guilt, yet silent when he was acquitted?

[eFestivals]

7 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

Your mind has been made up. You will criticise what he does wrong and ignore what he does right. Forgive me if it's a case of mistaken identity, but weren't you one of the people very vocal about Ched Evans guilt, yet silent when he was acquitted?

And all Trumpers are definitive racists and all brexieers are extremists. Yep, that's him.

As extreme as anything of Trump is mr zahidf.

[zahidf]

7 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

Your mind has been made up. You will criticise what he does wrong and ignore what he does right. Forgive me if it's a case of mistaken identity, but weren't you one of the people very vocal about Ched Evans guilt, yet silent when he was acquitted?

Oh come on, that fewer one was a joke. Almost as much of a joke as the justice system around rape!

Ive said ill hold my hands up and admit being wrong if Trump turns out to be better than his campaign and his character suggests. Im not holding my breath

[feral chile]

regardless of the generalisations that get bandied about by all of us, leaders are meant to be role models. And we as a country are voting for the leaders.

(goes away to ponder the direction of the influence being exerted).

[pink_triangle]

46 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Oh come on, that fewer one was a joke. Almost as much of a joke as the justice system around rape!

Ive said ill hold my hands up and admit being wrong if Trump turns out to be better than his campaign and his character suggests. Im not holding my breath

Well he is pretty much guaranteed to be better than the campaign on the basis he isn't building the wall or banning Muslim's. In terms of admitting your wrong, everyone here knows that will not happen. As with Ched Evans you take a view and only see things that support that view.

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, zahidf said:

Oh come on, that fewer one was a joke. Almost as much of a joke as the justice system around rape!

Ive said ill hold my hands up and admit being wrong if Trump turns out to be better than his campaign and his character suggests. Im not holding my breath

he's already shown himself to be better than his campaign, by the abhorent things from his campaign that he's already specifically rejected.

I've not seen an unequivical statement of recognition of that by you. 

So you can make one now.

 

[eFestivals]

22 minutes ago, feral chile said:

regardless of the generalisations that get bandied about by all of us, leaders are meant to be role models. And we as a country are voting for the leaders.

(goes away to ponder the direction of the influence being exerted).

"role models".

I thought you believed in equality?

Within equality, there are no super-special people with super-special skills beyond what others have.

Have you missed the central part of what you so very often advocate?

Perhaps you'd like to tell me which leaders there's been who have reached the heights of 'role model' in your mind?

[zahidf]

9 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

he's already shown himself to be better than his campaign, by the abhorent things from his campaign that he's already specifically rejected.

I've not seen an unequivical statement of recognition of that by you. 

So you can make one now.

 

Um, he cant ratchet up tensions by saying horrendous things and then get credit for not doing them.

Im glad he is backtracking, but he shouldnt have said it in the first place.

[eFestivals]

11 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Um, he cant ratchet up tensions by saying horrendous things and then get credit for not doing them.

Im glad he is backtracking, but he shouldnt have said it in the first place.

he shouldn't have done it in the first place, but good, positive things that take us further away from the bad things can still be credited. ;rolleyes:

It's only those blinded by hate who cannot do so.

Your name is donald and I claim my five dollars.

[feral chile]

19 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

"role models".

I thought you believed in equality?

Within equality, there are no super-special people with super-special skills beyond what others have.

Have you missed the central part of what you so very often advocate?

Perhaps you'd like to tell me which leaders there's been who have reached the heights of 'role model' in your mind?

We elect people to govern. Therefore we elect role models.

That's what a leader is. Including parents, teachers etc.

Humans model their behaviour on others. It's part of learning.

therefore, elected leaders have a responsibility to be good role models (or self elected ones, as far as parents etc. are concerned).

(I do believe in equality. I also believe in primate behaviour).

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, feral chile said:

We elect people to govern. Therefore we elect role models.

That's what a leader is. Including parents, teachers etc.

Humans model their behaviour on others. It's part of learning.

therefore, elected leaders have a responsibility to be good role models (or self elected ones, as far as parents etc. are concerned).

(I do believe in equality. I also believe in primate behaviour).

so you believe in role models as your leaders but can't identify any role model leaders.

Perhaps your belief in roles models might be misplaced, maybe?

Just a thought.

[feral chile]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

so you believe in role models as your leaders but can't identify any role model leaders.

Perhaps your belief in roles models might be misplaced, maybe?

Just a thought.

We're ALL role models for each other. Some of us are more visible than others, and therefore role models for more people.

peer pressure etc.

Edited November 25, 2016 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, feral chile said:

We're ALL role models for each other. Some of us are more visible than others, and therefore role models for more people.

peer pressure etc.

but you're still unable to name a single role model leader, while saying leaders should be role models.

How about, just perhaps, we're all flawed and you already know this, which is why you're not presenting any flawed leader as the role model you say they should be?

[zahidf]

9 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

so you believe in role models as your leaders but can't identify any role model leaders.

Perhaps your belief in roles models might be misplaced, maybe?

Just a thought.

Ok i think historically, the US have a much higher level of respect for their presidents than we do our leaders (Libraries named after them, 'respect the office', calling them mr president after their term is over, taught about in schools to a larger degree )

From the US perspective, their presidents are generally seen to be role models.

Edited November 25, 2016 by zahidf

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Ok i think historically, the US have a much higher level of respect for their presidents than we do our leaders (Libraries named after them, 'respect the office', calling them mr president, taught about in schools to a larger degree )

From the US perspective, their presidents are generally seen to be role models.

PMSL

So you can't name a role model either but expect a role model. 

Worse, you're now adding in exceptionalism by nationality. And this from the man who has been rejecting the exceptionalism claimed by nationalism

Stupid gets ever deeper.

 

Edited November 25, 2016 by eFestivals

[feral chile]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

but you're still unable to name a single role model leader, while saying leaders should be role models.

How about, just perhaps, we're all flawed and you already know this, which is why you're not presenting any flawed leader as the role model you say they should be?

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying what they should model, just that we model them.

or I'm misunderstanding you. Modelling is part of human behaviour. So we're ALL role models. To point to A role model would be to point to all humans.

Good role models are another issue.

All I'm saying is that people have voted in a leader, who's in a position to potentially be a role model for lots of people, and therefore what they do, people will model.

That applies to every one of us to some extent - humans model themselves on others, so we're all role models and model ourselves on other role models (peer pressure).

Sorry, I'm waffling, because I don't understand your question.

[zahidf]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

PMSL

So you can't name a role model either but expect a role model. 

Worse, you're now adding in exceptionalism by nationality. And this from the man who has been rejecting the exceptionalism claimed by nationalism

Stupid gets ever deeper.

 

Role models i would say at the moment are merkel and justin trudeau. And as much as you dislike her, i think sturgeon has a lot to recommend to her in terms of how she shows compassion and level headedness in her every day dealings.

And daresay Obama as a politician is also very calm and dignified as president, though certain aspects of his international policy i dislike.

You missed my point about the US president. The question i assume was whether we should see Trump as a role model. Culturally and practically, the USA do give their presidents more respect and veneration, so from their perspective, he would be expected to act like a role model for kids.