Time to resurrect Rock Against Racism?

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, DeanoL said:

You get two choices in a US Presidential election. You have to pick the one that fits you best. Even if you think Trump is racist, you may still think everything else he does is better than Hilary. At which point it just depends on how important the issue of race is to you, against every other issue.

If you firmly believe that Hilary's economic plans would crash the economy, bringing on record unemployment, and hence homelessness, poverty and so on (which would of course, disproportionately affect non-whites) you might even believe that Trump is still a better choice for racial minorities than Hilary.

yep - just as it's possible to think that registering Muslims is better than blowing them to fuck with bombs.

 

[alrapp]

I would add that it is likely true that not all Trump suporters are racist extreme right wingers in the same way that not al Germans who suported Hitler hated Jews. I'm sure this fact would be of little comfort to those in Dachau or Auschwitz.

Civil rights groups across America are extremely worried right now and  are seeing a huge rise in membership and yes I can provide evidence of this fact. I think these organisiations that have campaigned very successfully for many causes over decades might have a very good idea of the political temperature in the States right now.

[DeanoL]

2 minutes ago, alrapp said:

I would add that it is likely true that not all Trump suporters are racist extreme right wingers in the same way that not al Germans who suported Hitler hated Jews. I'm sure this fact would be of little comfort to those in Dachau or Auschwitz.

Civil rights groups across America are extremely worried right now and  are seeing a huge rise in membership and yes I can provide evidence of this fact. I think these organisiations that have campaigned very successfully for many causes over decades might have a very good idea of the political temperature in the States right now.

They should be worried. But what they need to do is ensure the non-racist Trump supporters (much of of the House and Senate, for example) don't allow the more dangerous stuff to pass. Labelling them racists just because they voted for Trump doesn't help. It's more likely to lead to them going "you know what, we'll stay out of it - let them have the fight themselves".

[clarkete]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

And yes, i'm quite happy to agree that it's spouted plenty of the more extreme views of the right, but it's only the same as Fox News, or the Daily Mail - views from the side of the spectrum you don't align with. Funnily enough, they feel much the same about your (and my) views.

This is what they published after South Carolina and is a good deal less sensitive than what we'd expect from Fox, the Scum and the Fail.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/07/01/hoist-it-high-and-proud-the-confederate-flag-proclaims-a-glorious-heritage/

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, alrapp said:

I would add that it is likely true that not all Trump suporters are racist extreme right wingers in the same way that not al Germans who suported Hitler hated Jews. I'm sure this fact would be of little comfort to those in Dachau or Auschwitz.

Only of relevance if anyone is really thinking that anything like that comes next with Trump.

And if anyone is really thinking that, I'd love to see their insane justification.

If the USA is to go more to the dark side, that dark side will be much more like the pretend-equality of the USA's segregated past than it will be anything like Hitler - which of course isn't a good thing, but neither is to over-play the fears which will only make those false prophets look foolish in the future, and will weaken public support against wrong in the future.

 

1 minute ago, alrapp said:

Civil rights groups across America are extremely worried right now and  are seeing a huge rise in membership and yes I can provide evidence of this fact. I think these organisiations that have campaigned very successfully for many causes over decades might have a very good idea of the political temperature in the States right now.

I've ended up having to 'defend' Trump because some people posting here have translated those genuine concerns into something utterly terrifying on the basis only of their liking for fantasy - of playing on hatred in exactly the same way as Trump, and no better than Trump.

Personally I think all this will prove itself to be mostly a storm in a teacup, where very little of even the small predictions of bad will come about (there's currently an up-surge but its likely to fall back again exactly as happened in the UK around the EUref).

For example, the Muslim Register doesn't look very likely, because so many (even those close to trump) are trying to urge Trump into doing it - something they wouldn't feel the need to do if they thought he'd follow thru.

But if it does? None of this end-of-civilisation stuff came along with it when Bush introduced it, and Obama wasn't Satan for continuing with it for 3 years of his presidency. And it's dead easy to fuck-over anyway, by non-Muslims registering (who none felt was necessary when a register happened previously).

Remember folks, the nicest republican presidents are evil, not just Trump.

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, clarkete said:

This is what they published after South Carolina and is a good deal less sensitive than what we'd expect from Fox, the Scum and the Fail.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/07/01/hoist-it-high-and-proud-the-confederate-flag-proclaims-a-glorious-heritage/

In a British context it's "help for Heroes" on the front page of the Sun.

The celebration of our glorious history, that the mean and nasty left don't want us to celebrate.

And, as you see, the likes of google shut down the right to 'fly' that flag, where the 'right' to do whatever the fuck you like without regard for others is 100% standard republican.

I don't agree with anything of the angle that's coming from, but neither do I see anything but standard American stuff within it either. Their right to be offensive and ignorant and moronic is a right they hold dear.

[clarkete]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Remember folks, the nicest republican presidents are evil, not just Trump.

1.  Most of his predecessors you had some feel for what they intended to implement, his policies are not clear in a lot of areas, as much of it just doesn't seem to add up or be deliverable.

2.  Even the dark lord Rove appears like a teddy bear compared to Bannon.

3.  With them controlling both houses they could have pretty much free reign.

4.  Almost without exception the people he's appointed are repugnant arseh*les.

5.  He's going to be making several appointments to the supreme court, which will set the tone there for decades.  And it's a pretty sinister tone unfortunately.

 

[waterfalls212434]

I just cant be arsed anymore, this loony toons is on another planet, yeah you, you! left wingers! fuck you! your the ones causing the problems in this world! yeah how dare you call a racist a racist, a bigot a bigot, a homophobe a homophobe, how dare you!

I dont give a fuck anymore, I dont want to give a fuck when standing up for whats morally right is somehow deemed so wrong in peoples eyes. fuck it all burn it the fuck down who gives a fuck!. yay trump! 

Its my kids I feel sorry for, they are the ones who in the future will have to deal with the fallout from utter c**ts like trump, farage, may and their backers actions in the now, what a shame we werent allowed to oppose them for fear of being seen to be nasty to them eh? 

Edited November 22, 2016 by waterfalls212434

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, clarkete said:

1.  Most of his predecessors you had some feel for what they intended to implement, his policies are not clear in a lot of areas, as much of it just doesn't seem to add up or be deliverable.

I don't disagree.

When they're unclear, how are so many able to know with such certainty that it's the coming of death camps and the like?

Especially when the things they claim as proof for that are very obviously not the proof they claim?

 

5 minutes ago, clarkete said:

2.  Even the dark lord Rove appears like a teddy bear compared to Bannon.

3.  With them controlling both houses they could have pretty much free reign.

You mean the danger is from standard republicans, the same standard republicans who are always in politics

So why weren't those same standard republicans the same danger last time?

 

5 minutes ago, clarkete said:

4.  Almost without exception the people he's appointed are repugnant arseh*les.

More of the standard republicans.

 

5 minutes ago, clarkete said:

5.  He's going to be making several appointments to the supreme court, which will set the tone there for decades.  And it's a pretty sinister tone unfortunately.

He doesn't get to make the appointments, he only gets to recommend someone (two people, if someone dies as they're expected to).

It's not the best situation for my preferred outcome, but funnily enough they feel the same in reverse. Thing about opposite sides makes the fact of appointments repugnant. Opposite sides is why politics exists at all.

so this is really and very formally back before those standard republicans.

Trump can only be what some claim of him if the republican party has always been full of fascists.

-----

Meanwhile, why are minority people scared? Is it all Trump's doing, or might the last year of mainstream media telling them the anti-Christ is coming - not because it's the truth but because they hoped it would bring them victory - have something to do with it?

If I were a minority and leaving zahidf to guide me I'd have shit my guts thru my arsehole by now. 

It doesn't mean those levels of fear are justified without the facts to back it up - and there's just not the facts to back it up. Trump being an asrehole only proves he's an arsehole, it doesn't prove anything more.

You only have to read this thread and others to see the high levels of bullshit the self-appointed righteous want other pepopel to fall for - and not for the benefit of those other people,k it's for the benefit of themselves, their own power, no less fascist driven than anything Trump is accused of.

Facts not fiction, hope not hate.

 

 

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

I just cant be arsed anymore, this loony toons is on another planet, yeah you, you! left wingers! fuck you! your the ones causing the problems in this world! yeah how dare you call a racist a racist, a bigot a bigot, a homophobe a homophobe, how dare you!

You're quite welcome to call a racist a racist.

When you call approxiamtely 60M racist on the basis only of the most vague of associations, you're on the same ground as someone who calls all Muslim's terrorists.

What don't you understand about labelling people on a false basis?

 

 

9 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

I dont give a fuck anymore, I dont want to give a fuck when standing up for whats morally right is somehow deemed so wrong in peoples eyes. fuck it all burn it the fuck down who gives a fuck!. yay trump! 

It's morally right to buillshit? it's morally right to call tens of millions who you don't know and don't have the first idea about 'racist', just because they don't think identically to you?

I guess it must be morally right for you to also call tens of milliolns terrorist on the basis of their religion then. The association is at least as close.

 

9 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

Its my kids I feel sorry for, they are the ones who in the future will have to deal with the fallout from utter c**ts like trump, farage, may and their backers actions in the now, what a shame we werent allowed to oppose them for fear of being seen to be nasty to them eh? 

There we go - the full fascist..

People who disagree with you are indisputably evil.

You're as fuil of hate as Trump or any Trumper.

 

[scrippit]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

I'm no fan of hatred, whether it's Trump's own or from those who hate Trump. Hating Trump is fine, there's a whole list of indisputable reasons (but not bullshit) that makes him worthy of that response, but to mass-label tens of millions of people as being *ONLY* driven by racism is being no better than Trump's own mass labelling.

Hope, not hate.

In provided some referenced evidence about his monolithic references but it was ignored. Here it is again: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-racist-examples_us_56d47177e4b03260bf777e83 worth reading the whole article which is reasonably balanced in my view (I agree that much comment is not).

I have never mentioned hating Trump or all Trump supporters - you are putting words in my mouth. I have not said he deplored all blacks or denigrated all mexicans as you have implied. I cannot, however, ignore what I draw from my own research - and that is that the alt-right is an alternative name for plain and simple hard right nationalism and it is more confident and growing faster than at any time since the 70s. That is worth resisting. Peacefully.

I am not, and never have, espoused 'hate' as a solution and I resent any such implication. I am therefore throwing the towel in Neil and deferring to your clearly superior factual knowledge. I am gonna sit back and do some 'hoping' instead. I'm sure plenty of perfectly reasonable citizens did so in the '30s.

Never seems to have worked in the past. Do you suppose it will this time around?

Hope, not hate. 

 

 

[waterfalls212434]

17 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

You're quite welcome to call a racist a racist.

When you call approxiamtely 60M racist on the basis only of the most vague of associations, you're on the same ground as someone who calls all Muslim's terrorists.

What don't you understand about labelling people on a false basis?

 

 

It's morally right to buillshit? it's morally right to call tens of millions who you don't know and don't have the first idea about 'racist', just because they don't think identically to you?

I guess it must be morally right for you to also call tens of milliolns terrorist on the basis of their religion then. The association is at least as close.

 

There we go - the full fascist..

People who disagree with you are indisputably evil.

You're as fuil of hate as Trump or any Trumper.

 

For the last time and get this in your sodding head.......I NEVER called EVERY trump supporter a racist!....in fact I would love for you to show me where ive said that!  go on, quote me if you can find me flat out saying that as you claim? 

you know what I have a problem with matey? assholes making up shit I never actually said to attack me! 

Also waiting for you to show me where I claimed anyone who disagrees with me is indisputablty evil? you talk about exaggerated bs? what the fuck do you call that?  I have no problem with people who disagree hell one of my best mates is a tory supporter of all things........but I reserve the right to call an asshole an asshole and that no matter you want to admit it or not for various reasons IS true in the case of Nigel Farage, Theresa May and Donald Trump!

Edited November 22, 2016 by waterfalls212434

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, scrippit said:

I have not said he deplored all blacks or denigrated all mexicans as you have implied. I

I quoted you where you did so.  

 

[DeanoL]

37 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

Its my kids I feel sorry for, they are the ones who in the future will have to deal with the fallout from utter c**ts like trump, farage, may and their backers actions in the now, what a shame we werent allowed to oppose them for fear of being seen to be nasty to them eh? 

In a democracy, you oppose a government you don't like by convincing the supporters of that government they were wrong to do so. Don't confuse getting angry, yelling, and posting snarky stuff on social media as "opposition". There's nothing inherently wrong with it but it's also not helpful.

[waterfalls212434]

8 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

In a democracy, you oppose a government you don't like by convincing the supporters of that government they were wrong to do so. Don't confuse getting angry, yelling, and posting snarky stuff on social media as "opposition". There's nothing inherently wrong with it but it's also not helpful.

I get your point but we`ve also all seen where the `wet blanket-kind of oppose them but don`t want to seem to harsh about it....oh look we can just abstain rather then vote down then we wont seem to be to nasty to them` mentality gets us...after all that`s why ed millibands attempt at removing the Tory party flopped so hard.

That doesnt inspire anyone even supporters on your own side let alone anyone to come across. Nothing wrong with a bit of fire and passion to make people see you stand up for what you claim to believe in.

Edited November 22, 2016 by waterfalls212434

[Alex DeLarge]

4 hours ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

SJW

 

Anyway, I think Rock Against Racism wouldn't really serve a purpose now though? Young people are into grime and Kendrick Lamar who bring up issues of racism on a personal level. Unless there was an movement featuring artists speaking up against racism towards people from the Middle East? M.I.A. and Riz MC do a spectacular job but I'd love to hear even more voices in music from Asian people.

[waterfalls212434]

2 minutes ago, Alex DeLarge said:

 

Anyway, I think Rock Against Racism wouldn't really serve a purpose now though? Young people are into grime and Kendrick Lamar who bring up issues of racism on a personal level. Unless there was an movement featuring artists speaking up against racism towards people from the Middle East? M.I.A. and Riz MC do a spectacular job but I'd love to hear even more voices in music from Asian people.

can add people like Lowkey and Akala to that list. Not only great artists, but very intelligent, well informed human beings
 

Fuck me watching that video you realise how powerful music can be.......no words.

Edited November 22, 2016 by waterfalls212434

[clarkete]

17 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

When they're unclear, how are so many able to know with such certainty that it's the coming of death camps and the like?

You mean the danger is from standard republicans, the same standard republicans who are always in politics

So why weren't those same standard republicans the same danger last time?

More of the standard republicans.

He doesn't get to make the appointments, he only gets to recommend someone (two people, if someone dies as they're expected to).

Facts not fiction, hope not hate.

1.  I don't agree with some of the claims that you've been refuting and nor have I made them, the first above being a prime example.

2.  They didn't control both houses during the time that GW was in charge, so in this case there's no filter whatsoever.

3.  His first appointments are not the same standard as his predecessors.  Flynn makes Condoleezza Rice seem like a softie, likewise his others at first glance don't stand up to much scrutiny against recent republican appointments.

4.  I believe he will already have one to appoint and there's 2-3 others who have commented on potential retirement and are in their eighties.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, waterfalls212434 said:

For the last time and get this in your sodding head.......I NEVER called EVERY trump supporter a racist!....in fact I would love for you to show me where ive said that!  go on, quote me if you can find me flat out saying that as you claim? 

you know what I have a problem with matey? assholes making up shit I never actually said to attack me! 

I got into the 'this morning' thread due to zahidf posting that all Trump voters are deliberate racists. Every single one of my posts have been about refuting that and the others who've made posts in support of his words or attacking back at my words with the same theme.

So if anyone is guilty of mis-reading the first doing that is you and not me.

Even so, I apologise if you've not been guilty of explicitly saying that.

Now, perhaps you can do me the courtesy of looking back at my posts with what I say just above in mind, to see that every single one of my posts are attacking hatred - from both Trump's AND Trump-haters -  and exposing mis-truths or mis-representations about what Trump is said to have done (which are being used to ramp up hate towards Trumpers), or massive assumptions (which are being used to ramp up hate towards Trumpers).

The bigger the bullshit gets the more the division becomes entrenched and there can be no resolution. The hate will grow and grow by both sides.

I'm defending nothing of Trump.

But stuff like every republican state voting how every republican state always does is at least as relevant as anything Trump did or said. It gets to mean that huge numbers of people voted how they always voted and absolutely fuck all to do with anything specifically about Trump.

Such people are good people who happened to support a bad candidate - but still for the best of reasons by the values they hold dear. They hold responsibility for the consequences their vote brings, but that doesn't make them racist or evil, and any future for a better path is dependent on good people realising they can make a better vote - which will not be achieved by writing them off or calling them c**ts.

But it's not all about and only about the evil of Trump.

They're only able to make a better vote if there's a better candidate - and Clinton clearly wasn't even good enough for a significant proportion of dedicated Democrat voters either. 

We're now past the campaign of bullshit and into the reality. There'es no battle to be won around words in a now-irrelevant campaign. There are battles to be won on anything evil Trump tries doing.

And so far there's absolutely nothing to suggest any evil. The two (real-world) worst things that people suggest Trump might do are an existing Obama policy and a policy that existed under Obama for 3 years. That's the truth of things.

I've no problem with people being wary and concerned but we are still very much in the normal ground of USA politics and not on a certain road to hell. There's no need for any of the waaaay over the top false narratives some are trying to attach to Trump, they only further drive hate and division.

[Alex DeLarge]

4 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

can add people like Lowkey and Akala to that list. Not only great artists, but very intelligent well informed human beings

Akala was a lot of fun when I saw him over Summer, never really listened to Lowkey though. Any specific songs I should check out?

[waterfalls212434]

3 minutes ago, Alex DeLarge said:

Akala was a lot of fun when I saw him over Summer, never really listened to Lowkey though. Any specific songs I should check out?

Guy has a lot of content on youtube, as well as the one posted above which I think is a recent release heres a few more from past releases.
 

 

 

 

[eFestivals]

10 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

I get your point but we`ve also all seen where the `wet blanket-kind of oppose them but don`t want to seem to harsh about it....oh look we can just abstain rather then vote down then we wont seem to be to nasty to them` mentality gets us...after all that`s why ed millibands attempt at removing the Tory party flopped so hard.

That doesnt inspire anyone even supporters on your own side let alone anyone to come across. Nothing wrong with a bit of fire and passion to make people see you stand up for what you claim to believe in.

we've also seen where false smears get you. You can't paint someone as the devil with lies as Clinton and the whole of the american establishment tried to do. It's those lies which are driving a lot of your reaction to Trump, I reckon.

If you read what many Trump voting Americans say, you'll see very many admit to knowing Trump's as big a liar as Clinton. Trump won with that because he wasn't being a liar while pretending to be nice and clean and honest (while lying). Trump went the other way, and said to himself "if I'm painted as a liar I can tell the biggest lies and still only be a liar". So the lies got bigger, and he got more popular because people appreciated the pisstake back onto Clinton.

Sensible politics arrives when everything comes back down to earth, out of the lie-osphere and back into reality. And one reality that has to be faced up to is that Trump is not the devil he's been painted as, no matter how bad the real Trump might be.

[zahidf]

I believe i have added nuance to my previous statements: Not all trump supporters are racist (Though a disturbingly high number are or feel happier to openly express racism for some reason) but they were willing to turn a blind eye to his corruption, open boasts about sexual assault, and open racism for the promise of 'More Jam'.

I guess pity may be a better response to such an action, but annoyance is also a valid response.

 

Anyway, im sure he will prove most of his doubters right unfortunately. I just hope the damage is limited to the US and we avoid it (Though brexit will do more than enough unnecessary damage anyway alas)

Edited November 22, 2016 by zahidf

[waterfalls212434]

8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I got into the 'this morning' thread due to zahidf posting that all Trump voters are deliberate racists. Every single one of my posts have been about refuting that and the others who've made posts in support of his words or attacking back at my words with the same theme.

So if anyone is guilty of mis-reading the first doing that is you and not me.

 

I've no problem with people being wary and concerned but we are still very much in the normal ground of USA politics and not on a certain road to hell. There's no need for any of the waaaay over the top false narratives some are trying to attach to Trump, they only further drive hate and division.

Wait so Im to blame for misreading because you accused me of something I said which was actually some other guy? Mate if your quoting or posting to ME your directing your posts at ME sod what some other guy said....he is not me, I am not him even if we appear to be on the same side his words are not my words!

Oh and the normal ground of us poltiics is NOT nazi salutes at presidential candidate rallys! nor is it representatives of white nationalism fanzines like breitbart being given positions of power at the white house! Yes there have always been the extreme republican assholes out there but they've never been so close to power and never had so much influence....THAT is what people fear. Put it this way...... I never saw a rally for bush where people were chanting `heil bush` `heil bush` as SOME have been for trump. Its not all but its certainly more widespread then its ever been, such extreme movements seem to be growing and `their` candidate in the white house only encourages them and enables that to carry on.

Given that fact you cannot blame people for fearing for the future!

[Alex DeLarge]

4 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

Guy has a lot of content on youtube, as well as the one posted above which I think is a recent release heres a few more from past releases.

Thanks mate, will check it out and let you know what I think.

Also to add to my previous post, I don't want another group that has a title like 'Rock against Racism'. Obviously back then it was important because Eric Clapton had his massive knobhead rant, but I feel a group of musicians today would feel pressured to talk about certain issues and would be under immense pressure by the vocal left. I'd rather musicians individually gave their experiences and thoughts to try and work out a solution.