Don't vote Tory

[eFestivals]

14 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

democratic result? yeah because a tory/dup alliance is exactly what people voted for.......lol

Oh, FFS.

The people didn't vote for a labour alliance of any kind either. 

But you'd have no problem with that, would you?

If labour are allowed to try to form a queen's speech majority by cobbling something together then the tories have the same right. 

When you want everything to work in your favour only, there's a word for it. 

 

14 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

Theres even more people who would never vote tory again for choosing to enable the bigoted policies of the dup.

And there's plenty of people who don't vote labour because of a potential coalition with the SNP. :rolleyes:

 

[Spindles]

I don't think that the Tory party are going to be in the position to decide much about how things go, to be honest.  They face a rocky road and events are going to be what dictate things, not the desires of any political party or individual.

If the Tories manage to do the sensible thing from their position and not tear themselves apart over the next few days then they have a chance of holding together a government for a few months at least, beyond that it would be insane to pretend you can predict anything.  The interesting thing to watch is how the media commentators turn, things have looked shambolic for the Tories over the weekend really, an unpopular deal that both sides can't even agree has been made.

[eFestivals]

18 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

I look at winning as which party is on the rise and has the momentum and which party is looking worse and worse every day and has had to resort to a dangerous and unstable alliance just to cling to power? may is the one sweating, corbyn isnt believe me. 

Oh, Corbyn is sweat8ing too. He might have to try to do all the things he said can be done for free. 

[p.pete]

24 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

it might work badly, but an alternative Labour-led coalition that couldn't get a majority at all and depends on even more parties with bigger conflicting ideas would work much worse.

Simple fact is: the tories won and labour didn't. The tories have the numbers and Labour don't.

Corbyn trying to pretend differently by dismissing the result is a dangerous game, because there's plenty in this country would vote tory rather than support a party which refused to accept the democratic result.

This.  Even attempting to think about forming a government is ludicrous.  All this bluff and bluster sounds great and sticks the knife in a bit further, but Labour lost and the situation would be completely unworkable.  Instead of the situation of a weak tory government being able to achieve nothing, and the future political capital to be gained from that (saying nothing about the bollocking they're getting from their liaison with DUP), the situation would be flipped and it'd be Labour achieving nothing, handing away the political gains.

[waterfalls212434]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Oh, FFS.

The people didn't vote for a labour alliance of any kind either. 

But you'd have no problem with that, would you?

If labour are allowed to try to form a queen's speech majority by cobbling something together then the tories have the same right. 

When you want everything to work in your favour only, there's a word for it. 

 

And there's plenty of people who don't vote labour because of a potential coalition with the SNP.

 

your comparing the snp to the dup and then you want to roll your eyes at me? ha! The dup offend far more then those upset by Scottish nationalism for good fucking reasons!

 

9 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I'm quite happy to see them as "the best placed loser" if that's how you want to say it.

It's the same thing. They're the ones with control and the power, and they'll only be giving that up if it's to their own political advantage to do that.

No theyll be given it up when their alliance collapses when even many of their own mps dont support it and they cant get ANYTHING through parliament. 

I dont think ive quite come across anyone as deluded politically as you to be honest, your basically the efests boards version of theresa may `la la la hands over ears everythings fine, nothing to see here, itll work just fine.... ignore all reason, logic and basic common sense im right your wrong la la la `....lol

Edited June 12, 2017 by waterfalls212434

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, Spindles said:

I don't think that the Tory party are going to be in the position to decide much about how things go, to be honest.  They face a rocky road and events are going to be what dictate things, not the desires of any political party or individual.

If the Tories manage to do the sensible thing from their position and not tear themselves apart over the next few days then they have a chance of holding together a government for a few months at least, beyond that it would be insane to pretend you can predict anything.  The interesting thing to watch is how the media commentators turn, things have looked shambolic for the Tories over the weekend really, an unpopular deal that both sides can't even agree has been made.

That's pretty accurate as I see it, too. 

The one and only reason why the tories will give up power is if they think brexit will be so damaging to which ever party does it that will give the other party power for decades.

[stuartbert two hats]

I don't believe Corbyn seriously wants to form a minority government based the the current seats.  He wants to put forward an amended Queen's speech and budget to demonstrate he's ready for government after Parliament fails to give him a vote of confidence, triggering another General Election.

Edited June 12, 2017 by stuartbert two hats
added "seriously"

[waterfalls212434]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Oh, Corbyn is sweat8ing too. He might have to try to do all the things he said can be done for free. 

see above....utterly deluded you sound more like theresa may every day, `he said can be done for free` when? where? the labour manifesto was fully costed, they have a plan, unlike the tory version I might add but as per usual you didnt say shit about that then and you wont do now. 

What happened to that increased majority tory govt and labour wipeout you were so convinced was going to happen by the way neil? because there was no way people would back corbyn en masse? could it just be as people like me were saying ALL ALONG you were talking bollocks? 

its embarrassing for you now really your trying to cling to the `labour are rubbish` mindset when now the entire countrys moved on from that as proven by the biggest political swing in decades! 

like talking to a brick wall, it really is, youd still be calling corbyn rubbish if hed returned a labour majority government, youd find something to have a dig at your just mr fucking negative I tell you what its actually mentally taxing trying to debate this kind of stuff with you its so so doom and gloom from you all the fucking time.

[waterfalls212434]

3 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

I don't believe Corbyn seriously wants to form a minority government based the the current seats.  He wants to put forward an amended Queen's speech and budget to demonstrate he's ready for government after Parliament fails to give him a vote of confidence, triggering another General Election.

exactly. hes playing the long game, as he should. because the tory party are basically destroying themselves he doesnt need to do anything but wait for it all to collapse then take the reigns when he batters them for good next time around

[frostypaw]

Fully costed manifesto = promising things for free?

Strange times.

I think Corbyn's doing the right thing preparing a program of government so that people can see what the alternative would have been. Now that folk have actually had a chance to listen to the policies they're seeing there's a different way. When this shit-show of a coalition implodes and we have another election people can see there is a way out.

The whole "nobody saw it coming" line is bullshit - it was obviously coming if you looked at the shift in polling without the presumption that Labour are going to crash out horribly. Just follow the trend and it was clear. Gotta remove your own prejudices from the maths.

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

your comparing the snp to the dup and then you want to roll your eyes at me? ha! The dup offend far more then those upset by Scottish nationalism for good fucking reasons!

It doesn't matter a fuck. A coalition is a coalition is a coalition.

all that matters for any coalition is that there are the numbers to bring about that coalition. The tories have the numbers.

Meanwhile, you said no one voted for that coalition. I agree. I'm pointing out that no one voted for any alternative coalition either, so the alternatives don't have any greater moral right. The only 'right' that matters is the 'right' via the numbers.

 

4 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

No theyll be given it up when their alliance collapses when even many of their own mps dont support it and they cant get ANYTHING through parliament. 

those MPs support a tie-up with the DUP morte than they support being out of govt.

They might not get much thru parliament, but neither could any alternative.

 

4 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

I dont think ive quite come across anyone as deluded politically as you to be honest, your basically the efests boards version of theresa may `la la la hands over ears everythings fine, nothing to see here, itll work just fine.... ignore all reason, logic and basic common sense im right your wrong la la la `....lol

PMSL ... where the fuck have I said everything will work fine?

You have to go for the big BIG lie every time.

I'm simply pointing out that Labour in power would work even less fine, as they have even less support in the HoC than the tories do.

And i'm pointing out that the tories will be doing what suits the tories and not what suits Labour.

FFS. You think I'm the deluded one?

 

 

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

see above....utterly deluded you sound more like theresa may every day, `he said can be done for free` when? where? the labour manifesto was fully costed, they have a plan, unlike the tory version I might add but as per usual you didnt say shit about that then and you wont do now. 

The Labour manifesto had some numbers in it. It doesn't mean that those numbers are an accurate representation of how things would go. 

The IFS said it was a crock of shit. I happen to agree, and I can tell you why too, using evidence and numbers and facts, and not fact rejection and blind faith. 

I don't care about the tory plan. I care about a sustainable Labour govt.

If you can do facts, we can discuss the facts. But that would require you to engage with facts.

 

[Spindles]

8 minutes ago, frostypaw said:

I think Corbyn's doing the right thing preparing a program of government so that people can see what the alternative would have been. Now that folk have actually had a chance to listen to the policies they're seeing there's a different way. When this shit-show of a coalition implodes and we have another election people can see there is a way out.

I agree.  It is time now to demonstrate that the Labour party has the best people equipped to run the country and allow the conservatives to make their own mistakes.  Be assured the Tories WILL slip up, they are rudderless in the waters of events right now with a weakened leader surrounded by a team that the public have little confidence in.

[eFestivals]

10 minutes ago, frostypaw said:

Fully costed manifesto = promising things for free?

Strange times.

95% of people were promised a freebie. Fact!

As for fully costed, that's only meaningful if the numbers reflect reality.

If you want to discuss it I can detail how they don't. Do you want to engage in facts or just spout rhetoric?

I've done this several times in this thread. I've laid it out several times in this thread. And people just run away without any come back, presumably because they suddenly wake up to the big holes in the McD plan.

 

 

10 minutes ago, frostypaw said:

The whole "nobody saw it coming" line is bullshit - it was obviously coming if you looked at the shift in polling without the presumption that Labour are going to crash out horribly.

so people saw it coming for less than 6 weeks. Even Corbyn himself said it was a big surprise.

Which gets to mean that the 2 full years before that 6 weeks everyone saw a disaster - meaning that the PLP's objections to Corbyn were well founded even tho they ultimately turned out to be wrong.

 

10 minutes ago, frostypaw said:

Just follow the trend and it was clear. Gotta remove your own prejudices from the maths.

the maths that gives the tories a majority and all of the power for as long as they want it.

 

 

[Duncan Doughnuts]

It is sad seeing governments attempt to cling on to power through unlikely partnerships - Labour also tried to deal with the DUP in the past http://www.irishnews.com/news/2015/09/02/news/hillary-clinton-emails-labour-sought-dup-election-pact-248668/

 

 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2017 by Duncan Doughnuts

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, Duncan Doughnuts said:

It is sad seeing governments attempt to cling on to power through unlikely partnerships - Labour also tried to deal with the DUP in the past http://www.irishnews.com/news/2015/09/02/news/hillary-clinton-emails-labour-sought-dup-election-pact-248668/

PMSL

Meanwhile, Labour can only gain power via even-more-unlikely partnerships.

I don't like it, but people need to start realising that it's the tories who have the upper hand here. They'll only be leaving power if they think it's to their advantage to do so.

Edited June 12, 2017 by eFestivals

[Duncan Doughnuts]

@eFestivals @waterfalls212434 I thought you two would have kissed and made up after Thursday's election?

[eFestivals]

Just now, Duncan Doughnuts said:

@eFestivals @waterfalls212434 I thought you two would have kissed and made up after Thursday's election?

some of us always do facts. Some of never do.

Waterfalls might as well come out and say that he thinks Labour won. ;lol:

 

[Duncan Doughnuts]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

some of us always do facts. Some of never do.

Waterfalls might as well come out and say that he thinks Labour won. ;lol:

 

Of course Labour didn't win.

However, it could suggested that had the election been delayed (in light of the terrorist attacks), the result could have been even more favourable for Labour (who were coming up on the rails). It could most certainly be argued that Theresa & co would be in a far weaker (possibly terminal) position without the impressive campaign ran by the Scottish Tories.

I know you don't want to deal in anything other than facts Neil, and I respect that, but the facts are that this Tory government have been beyond cruel with the policy of Austerity - and this policy was clearly rejected by the electorate (over 50%). Even the DUP, who are more conservative than the Conservatives, felt that it has now gone too far. The facts remains that the Tories have still not acknowledged that it wasn't May who lost their majority - it was their policies going back to 2010. This is galling to the extreme - they are still trying to wriggle out of acknowledging that Austerity has not worked.

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, Duncan Doughnuts said:

Of course Labour didn't win.

However, it could suggested that had the election been delayed (in light of the terrorist attacks), the result could have been even more favourable for Labour (who were coming up on the rails). It could most certainly be argued that Theresa & co would be in a far weaker (possibly terminal) position without the impressive campaign ran by the Scottish Tories.

I know you don't want to deal in anything other than facts Neil, and I respect that, but the facts are that this Tory government have been beyond cruel with the policy of Austerity - and this policy was clearly rejected by the electorate (over 50%). Even the DUP, who are more conservative than the Conservatives, felt that it has now gone too far. The facts remains that the Tories have still not acknowledged that it wasn't May who lost their majority - it was their policies going back to 2010. This is galling to the extreme - they are still trying to wriggle out of acknowledging that Austerity has not worked.

just because you don't like how the FPTP system works doesn't get to mean that the FPTP system is ended. The system changes only after the system is changed.

It's almost never the case that a single aim has more-than 50% of the vote. If Labour got in power they wouldn't have 50%+ for their plans either,.

Writing favourable narrative for what you want means fuck all to how the HoC works. 

And people going around pretending the result has a different meaning to what the numbers say is not a good look. The version of democracy we have is the version of democracy we operate, until such time as the version changes.

Trump didn't get the most votes in the USA, either, but he's still the legitimate Pres.

[russycarps]

31 minutes ago, Scruffylovemonster said:

TBF I ain't sure the hecklers were necessarily Tories. Just some of the modern glasto audience not aware of the political history and wanting to listen to a band not a "boring politicisn."

Still abhorrent , mind but on the main stages, that's what Glastonbury is now. The "I Want to go to glastonbury to get away from politics, not have it shoved down my throat" brigade. The hecklers had probably never voted, so not really Tories. 

Maybe, but it was no doubt the same bunch who started loudly celebrating when they woke up and heard we'd voted to leave the EU.

If not tories, then certainly rotten c**ts.

 

 

[p.pete]

1 hour ago, Duncan Doughnuts said:

It is sad seeing governments attempt to cling on to power through unlikely partnerships - Labour also tried to deal with the DUP in the past http://www.irishnews.com/news/2015/09/02/news/hillary-clinton-emails-labour-sought-dup-election-pact-248668/

 

I never liked that Blair-Brown rot that infested the party.  I don't blame them for the global financial collapse, but that really would have set things backwards.

[eFestivals]

just a bit of inconvenient fact for those who prefer false over-statement....

He also pointed out that the party’s leader, Arlene Foster, backed his campaign for the government to pardon gay men who were prosecuted for homosexual acts in Northern Ireland in the past.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2017/jun/12/general-election-2017-theresa-may-faces-conservative-backbenchers-politics-live?page=with:block-593e51c5e4b0be3ed1925895#block-593e51c5e4b0be3ed1925895

[eFestivals]

and another...

Graham Brady, chairman of the Conservative backbench 1922 committee, told Sky’s All Out Politics that Theresa May needed to act in a “much more collegiate” way.

Speaking ahead of this afternoon’s meeting between May and the 1922 committee, he also played down the prospect of an immediate challenge to May’s leadership. Asked if there should be a leadership election, Brady said:

 

[zahidf]

9 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

and another...

 

 

'Tory Mp lies to the press about supporting May.'

Im sure the meeting tonight will be a celebration as well.

The DUP stuff: there are numerous examples of Sammy Wilson saying homophobic stuff, and Arlene Phillips. Its perfectly reasonable to use that as a stick against them, as is their stance on abortions.