Don't vote Tory

[windy_miller]

2 hours ago, SPTFRE said:

Possibly the greatest thing on the internet. Ever.

BBK has a new member...

 

This is a work of utter genius.  Much better than that terrible Ska song doing the rounds.

[EasyUserName]

7 minutes ago, uscore said:

sure, but most parties aren't quite so blatant for it.  I actually think it shows utter contempt for Tory voters.  It's saying they are either idiots or complicit in lying.

 

I don't know UK politics that well, but I imagine that there are plenty of poor practices littered in electoral history. 

 

I'd be interested in wondering if Labour had spotted this electoral law loophole would they have used it? It's pretty poor practice - technically legal, but only in that format (Facebook).  My personal experience of elections over the years is that poor behaviour isn't a specific practice tied to any one party (being on the edge of what is legal or even good taste). 

 

You could apply the same sort of logic to finances – I know that eFest has been talking about this for some time.  Making a “soundbite” statement about a policy but not explaining how it will be funded properly - isn’t that treating voters with contempt too? 

 

They’re both about saying what you have to – to your target voters at least - to win.

[uscore]

4 minutes ago, EasyUserName said:

 

 

I don't know UK politics that well, but I imagine that there are plenty of poor practices littered in electoral history. 

 

 

 

I'd be interested in wondering if Labour had spotted this electoral law loophole would they have used it? It's pretty poor practice - technically legal, but only in that format (Facebook).  My personal experience of elections over the years is that poor behaviour isn't a specific practice tied to any one party (being on the edge of what is legal or even good taste). 

 

 

 

You could apply the same sort of logic to finances – I know that eFest has been talking about this for some time.  Making a “soundbite” statement about a policy but not explaining how it will be funded properly - isn’t that treating voters with contempt too? 

 

 

 

They’re both about saying what you have to – to your target voters at least - to win.

 

 

well yes. repeating "strong and stable government" instead of anything of any substance and still expecting to win also means they don't think much of the electorate's intelligence.

[Mr.Tease]

16 minutes ago, arcade fireman said:

They were right about how to attract Lib Dems/Greens etc. The problem is that isn't usually enough to win an election. Without attracting a fair percentage of people who voted Tory last time it's very difficult to win power. Next election the well of non Tory voters will have run dry. This is the closest we have been to a 2 Party state since the 70s.

Next election Labour will need to pull a bunch of votes from the Tories.  Do you think a combination of MPs and members would be the best way to do this (as is the current system)? Or do you think giving members free rein would be? Plenty can't fathom why people keep voting Tory year in year out. They know a lot about how to appeal to people like them but very little about how to appeal to the other side.

I think you're right about all factions learning truths. But all I can see if Corbyn stays just to try and change the rules is that his faction wouldn't have learned anything. They will try and take matters entirely into their own hands.

If it's a hung Parliament then Corbyn hanging on wouldn't necessarily be so bad, but even then he'd need to pull a bunch of people over who saw his message this time and still voted for the Tories with a lacklustre campaign and a god awful leader. I'd still be sceptical but willing to give him a shot.

I think you can win over Tories without alienating your base as much as the Party did the past 10 years or so- Blair is a very good example, back in 1997 he managed to carry both. Granted that becomes much more difficult over time, but I think we could (thanks to this recent boost) find ourself in that position next election. I always think labour has really dropped the ball the past few years when it comes to small business's- Tories completely take them for granted, it would be nice to start targeting them and the self-employed. 

Like I said at the time, most people who voted Corbyn are just normal public sector workers and the soft left, I don't fear giving them more say (things got heated the past two years because both sides got each others backs up)- indeed, if you looked at the stats, they were starting to withdraw support from Corbyn before the election was called(which is one of the reasons May called the election- she was worried he'd resign!

The irony is, for those arguing that we could win this election with a centrist leader, is that there would have been be no election if we had a centrist leader! (expect maybe if that sociopath Owen Smith had won!   )

The absolute worse case scenario for me is the day after the election we go back to infighting.

[Mr.Tease]

27 minutes ago, uscore said:

sure, but most parties aren't quite so blatant for it.  I actually think it shows utter contempt for Tory voters.  It's saying they are either idiots or complicit in lying.

With Trump and the brexit campaign, and indeed this election, it does feel like lying has gone to a whole new level (though I've no idea if it just seems that way or if it actually has!)

[oneeye]

25 minutes ago, windy_miller said:

This is a work of utter genius.  Much better than that terrible Ska song doing the rounds.

That'll be this one; currently charting at No.4 

 

[Guest]

Assuming that the Tories get their 30 to 40 seat majority and Corbyn doesn't resign, would this cause the party to split into 'Socialist' and 'Centre Left' parties or will their MP's decide to stick with Corbyn at least for a while.

[Mr.Tease]

Guardian has declared its backing Labour (I know that sounds odd, but they supported Clegg  in 2010 and have been largely hostile vs Corbyn) - thought they would when they suddenly had two fluff pieces today and a photo shoot of him on the campaign trail

[Mr.Tease]

1 minute ago, Ommadawn said:

Assuming that the Tories get their 30 to 40 seat majority and Corbyn doesn't resign, would this cause the party to split into 'Socialist' and 'Centre Left' parties or will their MP's decide to stick with Corbyn at least for a while.

Only Idiots on each side would consider splitting under a first past the post system, so no. The party is pretty united on the manifesto at the moment  actually. 

[uscore]

 

Just now, Mr.Tease said:

Guardian has declared its backing Labour (I know that sounds odd, but they supported Clegg  in 2010 and have been largely hostile vs Corbyn) - thought they would when they suddenly had two fluff pieces today and a photo shoot of him on the campaign trail

Lots of late jumping on the Corbyn bandwagon recently.  Too little too late really.  Shame it didn't happen a lot earlier.   Once the referee blows the whistle to start the election race you stop the infighting til after the election.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

Only Idiots on each side would consider splitting under a first past the post system, so no. The party is pretty united on the manifesto at the moment  actually. 

Lets hope so. My main concern is those rumours about Blair wanting to 'get his hands dirty'. Mind you, he's so toxic I don't think anyone MP would consider joining any party he formed.

[Mr.Tease]

2 minutes ago, Ommadawn said:

Lets hope so. My main concern is those rumours about Blair wanting to 'get his hands dirty'. Mind you, he's so toxic I don't think anyone MP would consider joining any party he formed.

Ha, I'd forgotten about Blair and his mighty intervention! He's completely vanished again.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Mr.Tease said:

Ha, I'd forgotten about Blair and his mighty intervention! He's completely vanished again.

.... leaving a trail of fake tan

[Mr.Tease]

May has set the bar so low lately, I expect she just has to not have a meltdown on tonights question time and the press will swing back to 'May steadies the ship', and give her some bounce back coverage til polling day. I suspect that's how it will go. For Labour to have a hope she needs to put in a stinker of a performance (which I don't see happening- she must have been prepping for this all yesterday). Hope Corbyn doesn't slip up. Again I will be far too nervous to watch!

[waterfalls212434]

12 hours ago, babyblade41 said:

yes we are a passionate lot although I would never dip a toe in a religion thread that would get way too violent for me.  I must say that I have learnt quite a bit reading all the posts on here and good to know that more and more young people  (I'm assuming maybe wrongly that majority of the posters are under 30 )taking such a big interest in politics.

For far too long elections have not been focused enough for the younger generation to want to head out on polling day and rather than offspring just following in parents opinions they are questioning those decisions.

Passion is one thing and having someone debate their arguments in a non abusive manner and calling someone every 4 letter expletive as their view points differ is another.

I was always told if someone gets abusive their argument is lost 

Thankfully we can do this whether slinging cheap shots or having a good strong debate as some countries aren't so privileged 

Again you just dont get it....I consider the very fact you lend your support to the tory party abusive, because in giving them that support you are enabling some pretty awful things and personal to me some pretty nasty things that impact me, my family and importantly my kids futures.......its pretty hard not to get personal with people you know are lending support to people who want to strip your childs school of a lot of its budget potentially wrecking their education for example 

The overwhelming thing I get from this election is a lot of tory voters are just so fucking ignorant of the damage they are doing, they genuinely seem shocked that people get angry at them for voting the way they do........seriously mate come out of your bubble for one minute and look at the policies your backing, look at all the groups of people impacted and having their lives ruined in some way by tory party policy and look at the potential future for many(or lack of one) under another tory government....and then try and tell me you dont understand why people can get so angry!

Its personal for many, its very personal, this election is considered so important because many like myself see it as a last throw of the dice to stop this country going down a very dark path.....given that I dont apologise for being passionate, I dont apologise for getting angry at tory voters. You simply dont even seem to realise what you are doing in putting your support behind such people. Maybe you should spend a day down a homeless shelter, or a food bank, maybe a job centre sit in on some interviews where people are being sanctioned and having their income taken away for utterly ridiculous reasons...then youd understand `why` people get angry when they hear you plan to vote tory. Because like it or not this is what your enabling.  This is not uncontrolled anger, unjustified, random angry people......it really isnt. people like me get angry over this for a damn good reason, im actually quite a chilled out person but I have no time for people who defend the indefensible and go so far as to support those who hurt so many.....and then turn around and say `why are you angry, god your so angry arent you`....etc.....yes im fucking angry! because your enabling a bunch of c**ts to get back in and fuck up many peoples lives! thats a bloody good reason to be angry! more people should be angry over that then maybe it wouldnt constantly be allowed to happen!

Let me tell you something, I have a disabled friend who is fucking terrified of whats going to happen to her if another tory government gets power and increases their powerbase as a result, terrified of them cracking down even more then they already are on the support networks and the welfare people like her rely on, to the point where she has literally been in tears with worry at times over the potential consequences for her future of another tory government.  You want to tell me I should not think of people like her and not get angry about it when I see someone backing those tories? Sorry mate for I am only human and I therefore will get angry at people who support those who hurt people I know in such a way and many others alongside, what do you want people to stop caring? it aint gonna happen after all thats why `we` arent tories! End of.

Edited June 2, 2017 by waterfalls212434

[stuartbert two hats]

2 hours ago, uscore said:

 

Lots of late jumping on the Corbyn bandwagon recently.  Too little too late really.  Shame it didn't happen a lot earlier.   Once the referee blows the whistle to start the election race you stop the infighting til after the election.

It's not too late. Not at the rate the polls are changing.

[Mr.Tease]

11 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

It's not too late. Not at the rate the polls are changing.

Yep, all supporters are welcome, they're not jumping on the bandwagon, they've come to a considered decision and for a lot of them it wasn't easy or done with enthusiasm, hopefully more people will too.

[babyblade41]

25 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

Again you just dont get it....I consider the very fact you lend your support to the tory party abusive, because in giving them that support you are enabling some pretty awful things and personal to me some pretty nasty things that impact me, my family and importantly my kids futures.......its pretty hard not to get personal with people you know are lending support to people who want to strip your childs school of a lot of its budget potentially wrecking their education for example 

The overwhelming thing I get from this election is a lot of tory voters are just so fucking ignorant of the damage they are doing, they genuinely seem shocked that people get angry at them for voting the way they do........seriously mate come out of your bubble for one minute and look at the policies your backing, look at all the groups of people impacted and having their lives ruined in some way by tory party policy and look at the potential future for many(or lack of one) under another tory government....and then try and tell me you dont understand why people can get so angry!

Its personal for many, its very personal, this election is considered so important because many like myself see it as a last throw of the dice to stop this country going down a very dark path.....given that I dont apologise for being passionate, I dont apologise for getting angry at tory voters. You simply dont even seem to realise what you are doing in putting your support behind such people. Maybe you should spend a day down a homeless shelter, or a food bank, maybe a job centre sit in on some interviews where people are being sanctioned and having their income taken away for utterly ridiculous reasons...then youd understand `why` people get angry when they hear you plan to vote tory. Because like it or not this is what your enabling.  This is not uncontrolled anger, unjustified, random angry people......it really isnt. people like me get angry over this for a damn good reason, im actually quite a chilled out person but I have no time for people who defend the indefensible and go so far as to support those who hurt so many.....and then turn around and say `why are you angry, god your so angry arent you`....etc.....yes im fucking angry! because your enabling a bunch of c**ts to get back in and fuck up many peoples lives! thats a bloody good reason to be angry! more people should be angry over that then maybe it wouldnt constantly be allowed to happen!

Let me tell you something, I have a disabled friend who is fucking terrified of whats going to happen to her if another tory government gets power and increases their powerbase as a result, terrified of them cracking down even more then they already are on the support networks and the welfare people like her rely on, to the point where she has literally been in tears with worry at times over the potential consequences for her future of another tory government.  You want to tell me I should not think of people like her and not get angry about it when I see someone backing those tories? Sorry mate for I am only human and I therefore will get angry at people who support those who hurt people I know in such a way and many others alongside, what do you want people to stop caring? it aint gonna happen after all thats why `we` arent tories! End of.

Ok you want me to lay my cards on the table mate... I worked hard all my life, I was bought up in a world where you had children when you were in a financial stable position to do so, I never had maternity leave, no sickness pay, no holiday pay... single parent , 2 kids. I worked in-between nursery, school  and school holidays . I managed to pay off my mortgage at the age of 35 because I wanted to help my children when I'm not here and every parent wants to give their children a helping hand and any parent who doesn't shouldn't have kids . 

I was always there for both my girls, and when I see some people who have kid after kid with no fire to better their lifestyle I grieve for future generations , in my world we don't rely on benefits if we are fit and able to work 

I was a mental health nurse many years ago and and if you think mental health is something that can be a policy manifesto point you are wrong, 

IMO your rantings are from someone who needs to grow up, be a little more knowledgeable about the subject you constantly spew garbage about and state your point in an intellectual way 

I've pulled out of this thread as it's a predominantly labour ... no good preaching to the converted . Try and convince a tory to change their vote , so far no ones convinced me, that doesn't mean everyone's wrong it's just no one has convinced me that a labour government will work for the majority ... but if Mr Corbyn does make PM next week it will be something I have to work with and get on with... it's called living in a democracy 

 

You my friend need to make piece with the world you live in because at some point you will meet someone just as vehement as you in the opposing camp .. take care and look after your neighbour not just because he/she votes the same as you but because we all should be respectful of each others views ...isn't that what you believe to be the Glastonbury way 

[DeanoL]

1 hour ago, babyblade41 said:

but if Mr Corbyn does make PM next week it will be something I have to work with and get on with... it's called living in a democracy 

If you want to understand what's going on here you need to look at that statement very carefully. You don't have to, but if you want to understand some of the anger and yes, the hatred and nastiness being directed at you, it's in that sentence.

If Corbyn becomes PM next week, you just work with it and get on with it. It's not ideal for you, you might end up a few quid worse off but it's not a big deal is it?

What you have to understand about the Tories is that they're already dismantling the safety net for the poorest and most vulnerable. There are people looking at the possibility of another five years of Tory rule with the expectation that, should it happen, they won't have enough money to live, they'll be made homeless, forced to used food banks, expected to get a job when they're physically or mentally unable to...

And these aren't just random edge cases. These are people that might be on this very forum, or people on this forum might have friends in that position. They are scared shitless.

You are not scared shitless of a Corbyn government. You'd find it a minor inconvenience. You'be basically said that. Because like me, you're in a position of huge privilege where you're not actually effected by who is the ruling the country in any severe way.

But it's not necessarily the same for others as it is for you or I. We don't all have the same skin in the game when it comes to elections like this. So while you might find some of the anger and ranting here incomprehensible, it's worth trying to understand where it's coming from.

How you vote is obviously up to you, but understand that some people are, quite validly, scared for their lives. And none of those people are Tory supporters. 

[phillyfaddle]

Well said DeanoL

Edited June 2, 2017 by phillyfaddle
Addition

[bamber]

On 28/05/2017 at 8:18 PM, Mardy said:

It's so hard to tell, isn't it? There i was, refused entry to Henley Regatta for turning up in combats, a crate of lager and a Crass T-shirt. Should have been publicised a bit better, I think. Disappointing.

It takes place every year, the weekend after Glastonbury. Henley Regatta. We should disrupt it somehow, En Mass.

Disgusting flaunting of wealth. What a bunch of c**ts they turned out to be.

[Babylon sister]

On 01/06/2017 at 11:54 AM, mcshed said:

Whereabouts in Scotland? It's not like Scotland is a homogeneous blob where the rise in support for Ruth's Tories puts every seat in danger of going blue.

I'm in Midlothian where Labour have just taken minority control of the council after receiving most votes last month. Here an SNP vote is as likely to "let the Tories in" as a Labour one.

Whereas my mother in Stirling, a seat that was Conservative all my life up until 97 is in the situation where she said to me this morning she doesn't know what to do as "my best chance of getting an anti-Tory MP is to vote SNP, but my best chance of getting a Unionist candidate is to vote Tory". 

I'm in West Lothian 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, DeanoL said:

If you want to understand what's going on here you need to look at that statement very carefully. You don't have to, but if you want to understand some of the anger and yes, the hatred and nastiness being directed at you, it's in that sentence.

If Corbyn becomes PM next week, you just work with it and get on with it. It's not ideal for you, you might end up a few quid worse off but it's not a big deal is it?

What you have to understand about the Tories is that they're already dismantling the safety net for the poorest and most vulnerable. There are people looking at the possibility of another five years of Tory rule with the expectation that, should it happen, they won't have enough money to live, they'll be made homeless, forced to used food banks, expected to get a job when they're physically or mentally unable to...

And these aren't just random edge cases. These are people that might be on this very forum, or people on this forum might have friends in that position. They are scared shitless.

You are not scared shitless of a Corbyn government. You'd find it a minor inconvenience. You'be basically said that. Because like me, you're in a position of huge privilege where you're not actually effected by who is the ruling the country in any severe way.

But it's not necessarily the same for others as it is for you or I. We don't all have the same skin in the game when it comes to elections like this. So while you might find some of the anger and ranting here incomprehensible, it's worth trying to understand where it's coming from.

How you vote is obviously up to you, but understand that some people are, quite validly, scared for their lives. And none of those people are Tory supporters. 

If people really thought Labour could sort all that if in power, then they would be be riding high in the polls. The fact that they're not speaks volumes. There were homeless and food banks during the last Labour government as well you know.  I know a lot of people who are shit scared of what might happen if Labour win, particularly with Brexit looming. The thought of Corbyn and Co trotting off to Brussels to negotiate Britain's exit fills me with dread.

If the British economy crashes, the poorest and most vulnerable will be even worse off. They always are regardless of who's in power.

[Babylon sister]

Tony benn said that the way to control people is to demoralise and instill fear. The governments over the past 15-20 years have done a great job of that. He also said that to bring about real change you need to mobilise the poor to vote, I think there's more chance of Corbyn achieving that than anyone else at the moment.

 

I was horrified at the folk on question time last night pushing him on the "pushing the button" thing and I think he spoke well on this and could  trust someone who would want to negotiate.  

Long live the NHS

[uscore]

14 minutes ago, Ommadawn said:

If people really thought Labour could sort all that if in power, then they would be be riding high in the polls. The fact that they're not speaks volumes. There were homeless and food banks during the last Labour government as well you know.  I know a lot of people who are shit scared of what might happen if Labour win, particularly with Brexit looming. The thought of Corbyn and Co trotting off to Brussels to negotiate Britain's exit fills me with dread.

If the British economy crashes, the poorest and most vulnerable will be even worse off. They always are regardless of who's in power.

 

You may not like Corbyn, that's fair enough. But the one thing we've learned in the last few weeks is that he can handle himself in a debate, and under pressure interviews, whilst May didn't exactly shine - or in some cases avoids them entirely.   I'm no less confident of Corbyn and his team (which doesn't include Boris Johnson as Foreign Minister!!) than I am of May and her lot being able to represent Britain, particularly in regards to looking after the poorest and most vulnerable.

Edited June 3, 2017 by uscore