Don't vote Tory

[zahidf]

 

 

[eFestivals]

Just now, zahidf said:

 

 

the true story is *unused* NHS assets to property developers.

Care to tell me why any govt should hoard resources to *not* be used? That benefits no one at all.

For all the while we have private land ownership there's absolutely no reason why the govt should make land redundant. It benefits no one.

[Spindles]

It's all very well complaining about borrowing to invest, but we've been borrowing and NOT investing.  Our debt has risen under austerity, not declined, the evidence is that the policy does not and has not worked.

[bamber]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

the true story is *unused* NHS assets to property developers.

Care to tell me why any govt should hoard resources to *not* be used? That benefits no one at all.

For all the while we have private land ownership there's absolutely no reason why the govt should make land redundant. It benefits no one.

A proper (high) land tax is something we all should encourage our leaders to implement too.

[eFestivals]

23 minutes ago, bamber said:

If labour gain power (which they won't) that £15bn would be more than recouped if the top rate of income tax moved to 60% territory (which it is in other countries and has been historically) and corporation tax for large companies was 25%

I just wrote a very long reply and then managed to kill my browser so lost it and can't be bothered to retype it all

But the version you give that is waaaay to simplistic, and is based around all sorts of different perfect assumptions - when the reality isn't the perfect your take uses.

It starts with "changes in taxation change behaviour towards taxation", and tumbles thru all sorts of things including how to you expand an already fully-employed economy*, immigration (and revenues sent 'home'), the b-o-p deficit, and many other things.

(* in theory we're [in economic terms] a fully-employed economy. In reality there's plenty of under-employed, tho plenty of those are happy with their under-employed status and want to continue as that, because they don't see a benefit in swapping half the week off and their tax credits for almost nothing extra in their pocket from a full-time job).

[bamber]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I just wrote a very long reply and then managed to kill my browser so lost it and can't be bothered to retype it all

But the version you give that is waaaay to simplistic, and is based around all sorts of different perfect assumptions - when the reality isn't the perfect your take uses.

It starts with "changes in taxation change behaviour towards taxation", and tumbles thru all sorts of things including how to you expand an already fully-employed economy*, immigration (and revenues sent 'home'), the b-o-p deficit, and many other things.

(* in theory we're [in economic terms] a fully-employed economy. In reality there's plenty of under-employed, tho plenty of those are happy with their under-employed status and want to continue as that, because they don't see a benefit in swapping half the week off and their tax credits for almost nothing extra in their pocket from a full-time job).

In an election period we all hawk perfect assumptions. It's the way.

[eFestivals]

23 minutes ago, Spindles said:

It's all very well complaining about borrowing to invest, but we've been borrowing and NOT investing.  Our debt has risen under austerity, not declined, the evidence is that the policy does not and has not worked.

But we'll still have to continue with that borrowing to not invest (as well as invest), which makes your take that it's not worked a crock of shite.

Simple fact is: we'd have greater debt via your different version, which proves the version you say as not having worked as the better solution towards managing the deficit.

Austerity *has* worked at cutting the deficit - it's been cut by about 2/3rds. Just because it's not been dealt with as Osborne says doesn't make it failure, it just shows how fucking hard it is to sort out when even the happy-to-cut tories won't cut deep enough.

(none of that is me saying that a better job than Osborne managed couldn't have been done, just that if the objective is cutting the deficit [and that *needs* to be integral to anyone's plan], a different plan that increases the deficit cannot be used to call the Osborne plan a failure).

Edited June 3, 2017 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, bamber said:

In an election period we all hawk perfect assumptions. It's the way.

Really? Then why haven't the tories?

The tories have left doors open for tax rises (so they can't later get hung on 'but you promised no rises') precisely because they're not making perfect assumptions.

Labour's assumptions are so self-servingly perfect they don't even recognise that leaving the EU will have an impact.

[mcshed]

4 hours ago, Babylon sister said:

I'm in West Lothian 

If that puts you in the Livingston constituency then don't worry about letting the Tories in they only got 10% last time even with a huge rise they will never win it 

[bamber]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Really? Then why haven't the tories?

The tories have left doors open for tax rises (so they can't later get hung on 'but you promised no rises') precisely because they're not making perfect assumptions.

Labour's assumptions are so self-servingly perfect they don't even recognise that leaving the EU will have an impact.

Really? I think the Tories and all the other parties in this and all elections hawk like motherfuckers.

[eFestivals]

PS: I agree with plenty in the manifesto as good aims and good for better balancing the economy.

What I have issues with is the idea that you can make an omelette without breaking any eggs.

And when that's been sold to the public to get the votes to implement that no-broken-eggs plan, the public are not going to forgive the broken eggs. It'll be "you can't trust Labour with the economy" all over again.

(I can't see the public ever buying the broken eggs thing, so it ends up meaning the only choice is to go slower so there's fewer broken eggs in any timeframe).

[eFestivals]

Just now, bamber said:

Really? I think the Tories and all the other parties in this and all elections hawk like motherfuckers.

you think there's willing buyers for more taxes and homes taken away from inheritance?

It's because there's not that Jezza is so popular, and not because socialism is winning the argument.

[bamber]

Just now, eFestivals said:

you think there's willing buyers for more taxes and homes taken away from inheritance?

It's because there's not that Jezza is so popular, and not because socialism is winning the argument.

If you believe the polls then yes, there is that trend?

(I'm not sure I believe the polls btw.)

[Mr.Tease]

Looking over some articles about what's going on in Scotland (I know I should really be obsessing about glastonbury!), is there a chance that Scotland could stuff us? (I say that as someone who was born in Scotland) - there seems to be signs of a tory resurgence there (to vote vs the snp), the problem with that is it would mean extra MP's for the tories (at the moment they are all non-tory), if the election does end up being close (still don't believe it)  they could really make the difference. Hope our Scottish voters bare that in mind. 

[arcade fireman]

5 polls coming out this evening. If they don't show much movement then I think the chances of a Labour win would recede significantly. If they show significant further tightening then things might get very interesting - it also might provoke some panic in the Tory ranks which could force them into yet more unforced errors. I don't think we'll see that much movement in them though...

[Mr.Tease]

1 hour ago, arcade fireman said:

5 polls coming out this evening. If they don't show much movement then I think the chances of a Labour win would recede significantly. If they show significant further tightening then things might get very interesting - it also might provoke some panic in the Tory ranks which could force them into yet more unforced errors. I don't think we'll see that much movement in them though...

Opinium one is out (for the observer) and shows the tory lead down to 6 points, trend is good number isn't! We need to gain more ground and are almost out of time

[arcade fireman]

4 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

Opinium one is out (for the observer) and shows the tory lead down to 6 points, trend is good number isn't! We need to gain more ground and are almost out of time

Apparently this was conducted before the 7 way debate, so there's some hope there. As I've said for me this is all pointing towards the perfect storm for Labour (in a bad way) - a fairly decisive Tory majority which will leave May able to pass her bills with ease, but with the sort of margin that will make both factions of Labour draw different conclusions from it. And so it will begin again...

Edited June 3, 2017 by arcade fireman

[zahidf]

 

 

[Mr.Tease]

Comres poll- very unpleasant- Labour up 1 (35), but so are the Tories (47), giving them a 12pt lead. Let us never speak of it again....

[waterfalls212434]

21 hours ago, babyblade41 said:

Ok you want me to lay my cards on the table mate... I worked hard all my life, I was bought up in a world where you had children when you were in a financial stable position to do so, I never had maternity leave, no sickness pay, no holiday pay... single parent , 2 kids. I worked in-between nursery, school  and school holidays . I managed to pay off my mortgage at the age of 35 because I wanted to help my children when I'm not here and every parent wants to give their children a helping hand and any parent who doesn't shouldn't have kids . 

I was always there for both my girls, and when I see some people who have kid after kid with no fire to better their lifestyle I grieve for future generations , in my world we don't rely on benefits if we are fit and able to work 

I was a mental health nurse many years ago and and if you think mental health is something that can be a policy manifesto point you are wrong, 

IMO your rantings are from someone who needs to grow up, be a little more knowledgeable about the subject you constantly spew garbage about and state your point in an intellectual way 

I've pulled out of this thread as it's a predominantly labour ... no good preaching to the converted . Try and convince a tory to change their vote , so far no ones convinced me, that doesn't mean everyone's wrong it's just no one has convinced me that a labour government will work for the majority ... but if Mr Corbyn does make PM next week it will be something I have to work with and get on with... it's called living in a democracy 

 

You my friend need to make piece with the world you live in because at some point you will meet someone just as vehement as you in the opposing camp .. take care and look after your neighbour not just because he/she votes the same as you but because we all should be respectful of each others views ...isn't that what you believe to be the Glastonbury way 

`I managed to pay off my mortgage at the age of 35`

Because when you were growing up `mate` it was affordable to do that....I am sick to the backteeth of your generation who had things fucking easy as far as cost of living goes doing everything you possibly can to ensure my generation dont have such an advantage. How many people these days own their own home compared to those `back in your day`....especially young people...far far less....and why is that? 

`I never had maternity leave, no sickness pay, no holiday pay.`.

You didnt and so you vote for a party who would happily roll back those benefits if they had the slighest chance........nothing like the good ol days eh? 

`I was a mental health nurse many years ago and and if you think mental health is something that can be a policy manifesto point you are wrong, `

So funding for mental health related services and support isnt something that can be pledged? fail to see why not, that makes no sense what so ever.

`I was always there for both my girls, and when I see some people who have kid after kid with no fire to better their lifestyle I grieve for future generations , in my world we don't rely on benefits if we are fit and able to work `

I have 2 kids, ive worked since I was 18 never been on `benefits` as you put it and work my ass off to keep a roof over my familys head and food on the table, I think youll actually find the majority of `benefits` in todays uk are taken by those in work to top up their income so they can actually afford to live in this country.....what does that tell you?

`IMO your rantings are from someone who needs to grow up, be a little more knowledgeable about the subject you constantly spew garbage about and state your point in an intellectual way `

really? really? from someone who assumes im a benefit scrounger and want everything for nothing just because I back labour? 

`I've pulled out of this thread as it's a predominantly labour ... no good preaching to the converted .`

`translation `im taking my ball and going home`

`take care and look after your neighbour not just because he/she votes the same as you but because we all should be respectful of each others views .`

Respect ends when those views end up hurting my family and many many others....fed up of this bullshit how im apparently meant to be `friendly` to people who back those who cause so so much harm in this world and its not about `opinions` mate its what that opinion enables dont you get that?  `take care of your neighbour`......oh yes coming from you thats grand that is.....`caring` is the last thing your doing when your backing the people you are and that is the entire fucking point actually!

You want to back people who want to fuck up my familys future, fuck up the country we live in, fuck our economy, encourage the kind of elitisim which we should have seen the back of years ago....makes cuts to my kids education, ensure university is even less affordable for them then it already would be, try their damnedest to ensure they wont have access to a free at the point of use national health service, cut back on their employment rights etc etc and then you want me to be your friend? you want me to be nice to you? you claim I should be respectful of you because you `just have a different viewpoint`........Ill tell you where you have shove that idea pal its never gonna happen!

 

There are no `good` tories....if you were a good person, you wouldnt be a tory. it is that fucking simple and I dont give a rats ass if that offends you either, your party offends me! greatly offends me so heres   to ya! 

Edited June 3, 2017 by waterfalls212434

[waterfalls212434]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-tory-tax-policy-rise-income-tax-national-insurance-higher-earners-general-election-2017-a7770581.html

Need I say more? another reason why if your `not` on a high income and you back these clowns your a slug voting for salt....turkey voting for christmas....whatever you want to call it....I just call people like this bloody idiots...lol

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

`I managed to pay off my mortgage at the age of 35`

Because when you were growing up `mate` it was affordable to do that....I am sick to the backteeth of your generation who had things fucking easy as far as cost of living goes doing everything you possibly can to ensure my generation dont have such an advantage. How many people these days own their own home compared to those `back in your day`....especially young people...far far less....and why is that? 

`I never had maternity leave, no sickness pay, no holiday pay.`.

You didnt and so you vote for a party who would happily roll back those benefits if they had the slighest chance........nothing like the good ol days eh? 

`I was a mental health nurse many years ago and and if you think mental health is something that can be a policy manifesto point you are wrong, `

So funding for mental health related services and support isnt something that can be pledged? fail to see why not, that makes no sense what so ever.

`I was always there for both my girls, and when I see some people who have kid after kid with no fire to better their lifestyle I grieve for future generations , in my world we don't rely on benefits if we are fit and able to work `

I have 2 kids, ive worked since I was 18 never been on `benefits` as you put it and work my ass off to keep a roof over my familys head and food on the table, I think youll actually find the majority of `benefits` in todays uk are taken by those in work to top up their income so they can actually afford to live in this country.....what does that tell you?

`IMO your rantings are from someone who needs to grow up, be a little more knowledgeable about the subject you constantly spew garbage about and state your point in an intellectual way `

really? really? from someone who assumes im a benefit scrounger and want everything for nothing just because I back labour? 

`I've pulled out of this thread as it's a predominantly labour ... no good preaching to the converted .`

`translation `im taking my ball and going home`

`take care and look after your neighbour not just because he/she votes the same as you but because we all should be respectful of each others views .`

Respect ends when those views end up hurting my family and many many others....fed up of this bullshit how im apparently meant to be `friendly` to people who back those who cause so so much harm in this world and its not about `opinions` mate its what that opinion enables dont you get that?  `take care of your neighbour`......oh yes coming from you thats grand that is.....`caring` is the last thing your doing when your backing the people you are and that is the entire fucking point actually!

You want to back people who want to fuck up my familys future, fuck up the country we live in, fuck our economy, encourage the kind of elitisim which we should have seen the back of years ago....makes cuts to my kids education, ensure university is even less affordable for them then it already would be, try their damnedest to ensure they wont have access to a free at the point of use national health service, cut back on their employment rights etc etc and then you want me to be your friend? you want me to be nice to you? you claim I should be respectful of you because you `just have a different viewpoint`........Ill tell you where you have shove that idea pal its never gonna happen!

 

There are no `good` tories....if you were a good person, you wouldnt be a tory. it is that fucking simple and I dont give a rats ass if that offends you either, your party offends me! greatly offends me so heres   to ya! 

Oh dear .......

[arcade fireman]

I really wish Labour had used Keir Starmer front and centre a bit more on this campaign. Having someone with his gravitas might have added something to Labour. I think some people are turned off by the likes of Andrew Gwynne and Ian Lavery. 

[waterfalls212434]

22 minutes ago, Ommadawn said:

Oh dear .......

well why not tell it like it is!......you know what? respect? has to be earnt! and Tories and their supporters really really really dont earn any in my eyes.

I am accepting of the majority of people but I will not be `nice` to people who are quite frankly making a horrible and vile choice which affects my own family and many many others just because they have a `different opinion`.....by that logic should I be nice to the far right as well? should I `tolerate` Britain first? maybe invite paul and jayda round for a nice cuppa to discuss our mutual `respect` for each other? why dont I go on an edl march to `give their opinions a chance`?  Thats about the same logic as that on display here, why on earth would I tolerate and respect those who not only want to shit on my generation but are quite happily selling out the next generation including my own kids futures as well? Id sooner chew nails then be nice to a tory quite frankly.

[waterfalls212434]

1 minute ago, arcade fireman said:

I really wish Labour had used Keir Starmer front and centre a bit more on this campaign. Having someone with his gravitas might have added something to Labour. I think some people are turned off by the likes of Andrew Gwynne and Ian Lavery. 

Tories have sodding Boris Johnson in that position I think corbyn could have selected a member of the wombles as his shadow foreign secretary and it would have looked better then the tory option.