Don't vote Tory

[Guest]

1 hour ago, arcade fireman said:

It's entirely in keeping with Corbyn - him, McDonnell and Abbott have been political bedfellows since the 1980s. It would be very unusual for him not to give them prominent positions. Of course it's massively to the detriment of Labour's chances at this election unfortunately, but there you go. 

 

In the case of Diane Abbott, rather more than political bedfellows 

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

Look at some of the things Boris has said (bongo bongo land)  he also survived 

yep ... but only one is standing on a platform that's proclaiming it's not.

I don't disagree that Boris gets free passes where others don't, but Labour is meant to be something better than the tories.

Having said that, some of what Abbott is hung on gets used out of context, but plenty of it doesn't too.

Apparently it's OK for black woman to go against their stated principles (principles that have been used to attack others by, such as Blair) just because; she's black, and a woman. It's laughable.

I mean, come on, she's committed one of Blair's evil sins that supposedly proved him as no socialist - in Abbott's own view. And the people who condemn everything of Blair won't turn on Abbott for doing the same. Who was it yesterday who was saying how fucking stupid it is to go with 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'?

[eFestivals]

Just now, Ommadawn said:

In the case of Diane Abbott, rather more than political bedfellows 

 

[arcade fireman]

48 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

but apparently it can't even provide a basic service, and here you are saying how well it's treated you.

Either you're a liar, or something else is.

What are you implying here Neil? I work day in day out in the NHS, it's still capable of providing an excellent service and does in the majority of cases but there are increasing occasions this isn't the case - and this is down to underfunding first and foremost. Mental health care in particular is an absolute mess for too many people.

Edited June 6, 2017 by arcade fireman

[Mr.Tease]

14 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

yep ... but only one is standing on a platform that's proclaiming it's not.

I don't disagree that Boris gets free passes where others don't, but Labour is meant to be something better than the tories.

Having said that, some of what Abbott is hung on gets used out of context, but plenty of it doesn't too.

Apparently it's OK for black woman to go against their stated principles (principles that have been used to attack others by, such as Blair) just because; she's black, and a woman. It's laughable.

I mean, come on, she's committed one of Blair's evil sins that supposedly proved him as no socialist - in Abbott's own view. And the people who condemn everything of Blair won't turn on Abbott for doing the same. Who was it yesterday who was saying how fucking stupid it is to go with 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'?

I don't have much time for and haven't for years (I think since that row when she sent her kids to a private school which was hugely hypocritical), she's very arrogant and shit at making an argument,  I simply like pointing out the hypocrisy of Boris fans who laugh at her 

There was an article saying she booked herself on the Andrew Marr show and refused to back out of it when the campaign chiefs found out (makes sense as they have been very much on the ball this campaign). She then was atrocious again in it! 

[Mr.Tease]

2 minutes ago, arcade fireman said:

What are you implying here Neil? I work day in day out in the NHS, it's still capable of providing an excellent service and does in the majority of cases but there are increasing occasions this isn't the case - and this is down to underfunding first and foremost. Mental health care in particular is an absolute mess for too many people.

Yep, Ive just recently quit working in mental health for the nhs- cuts have made the service offered shit and unethical 

[eFestivals]

Just now, arcade fireman said:

What are you implying here Neil? I work day in day out in the NHS, it's still capable of providing an excellent service and does in the majority of cases but there are increasing occasions this isn't the case - and this is down to underfunding first and foremost. Mental health care in particular is an absolute mess for too many people.

I'm taking piss out of an earlier discussion in this thread, where I was pointing out that the "save the NHS" slogan doesn't work because that slogan has been a 35+ year lie, but where I was being told the NHS could no longer provide even a basic service.

I don't doubt that funding issues are having impact, but that's something different to what some people like to claim.

As for mental health care, it might be shite, but it's not something that's deteriorating. It's one of those many extra services that everyone seems to want but few think they should pay extra for getting extra - which is why Corbyn's manifesto is so popular, because apparently everyone can have everything they want but only 5% of people have to pay extra for everyone to have extras.

Corbyn might be doing well, but there's a reason why and it's got fuck all to do with greater support for socialism.

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

Yep, Ive just recently quit working in mental health for the nhs- cuts have made the service offered shit and unethical 

nothing to do with how working part time suits you well, too? I got that impression from an earlier post of yours (at least i think it was yours, apologies if I've got confused).

There's a lot of it about, which is yet another reason why Corbyn's plans are either not going to work out well or won't go down well.

[arcade fireman]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I'm taking piss out of an earlier discussion in this thread, where I was pointing out that the "save the NHS" slogan doesn't work because that slogan has been a 35+ year lie, but where I was being told the NHS could no longer provide even a basic service.

I don't doubt that funding issues are having impact, but that's something different to what some people like to claim.

As for mental health care, it might be shite, but it's not something that's deteriorating. It's one of those many extra services that everyone seems to want but few think they should pay extra for getting extra - which is why Corbyn's manifesto is so popular, because apparently everyone can have everything they want but only 5% of people have to pay extra for everyone to have extras.

Corbyn might be doing well, but there's a reason why and it's got fuck all to do with greater support for socialism.

Trust me, mental health care is massively deteriorating. I worked in mental health in 2010 and then again around the turn of 2015/2016. Quite a few occasions of sending people who were very unwell (in terms of their mental health) to places as far away as Scotland and Cornwall (from Greater Manchester) as there were simply no beds. Far away from their families. The most unwell patients go to Psych ICU - had no NHS bed for this most of the time so patients had to be sent to the private facility locally. Some questionable methods there as they got paid for the length of stay...

We also had a situation on a few nights over the last year where there were no paediatric ICU beds left in the country. This wasn't hyperbole. Some child somewhere had to be stepped down to ward care ahead of when they should have been. The NHS is capable of providing basic care most of the time but there are worrying instances where it is struggling. And these instances are becoming more frequent. 

"Save the NHS" is a catchphrase. The NHS will still exist in some form in 40-50 years time. But not a clue what form that might take.

[OBface]

I can say with certainty that NHS and public health contracts are being slashed to the core.

I work bidding for large public sector contracts - looking at a substance misuse service at the moment that sat at £9m three years ago and is now being tendered at £6m with effiency savings to be made year on year. Often I'm forced to walk away as my organisation is not willing to deliver an unsafe service which it would be at those funding levels. 

Very short sighted as the wait for treatment will mean increased numbers of people needed more acute services further down the line, at a greater cost.

Heartbreaking to see what it's doing to the vulnerable in our society.

[phillyfaddle]

8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

As for mental health care, it might be shite, but it's not something that's deteriorating.

Have to challenge this, with a small example of my own, which I'm fairly sure is echoed elsewhere in the country. My other half has been teaching in a local comprehensive since 2004. There used to be 11 Children's Mental Health workers (CAMHS) working with Hampshire schools. Not enough for the demand, but he says the service they provided was really excellent. Due to budget cuts, there are now just 2 for the whole of Hampshire. Kids who get referred to them are on 12 month waiting lists. Some of them are suffering terribly with anxiety/depression/self-harm and whilst teachers and pastoral care staff (whose own jobs are under threat!) are doing what they can, they are no substitute for professional CAMHS workers. As I said, ONE example. I'd be pleased to hear if anyone has had a different experience.

[Mr.Tease]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

nothing to do with how working part time suits you well, too? I got that impression from an earlier post of yours (at least i think it was yours, apologies if I've got confused).

There's a lot of it about, which is yet another reason why Corbyn's plans are either not going to work out well or won't go down well.

Nope, I was part time with the NHS (the way they treat staff and myself was a big reason too) . For me up until now I always had scope to offer extra sessions for people dealing with more complex issues, and could wrangle it, but more recently they started clamping down on everything and further limiting numerous of sessions known to 6 (which is a joke when dealing with childhood sexual abuse, rape, lifelong depression, trauma, etc- the guidelines for trauma is you shouldn't even tackle it with just 6 sessions, so essentially the NHS provides no support for survivors of childhood sexual abuse) with cancellations counting towards that.

Now they refer people to a website and divert resources into giving a one off talk to a classroom as they count that in the stats as 'treating'  30+ people with mental health problems.

They have also tightened the criteria of who is seen to keep the waiting list stats down, so often people in serious need aren't even allowed on the waiting list.

The eating disorders clinic was swamped and asked for more money but were told they shouldn't be seeing those people on the waiting list- they should come back when they are worse (purging ie vomiting 4 times per day instead of 2 to 3 times). Disgraceful stuff.

The counselling waiting list got so long at one place that they then transferred /hid most of the people on a waiting list for a lower intensity and completely inappropriate treatment to avoid being fined. It's an absolute shambles.

I do laugh when politicians talk about having parity between mental and physical health and that there increasing funding its a total crock of shit. The services are being downgraded to meet targets. 

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, arcade fireman said:

Trust me, mental health care is massively deteriorating. I worked in mental health in 2010 and then again around the turn of 2015/2016. Quite a few occasions of sending people who were very unwell (in terms of their mental health) to places as far away as Scotland and Cornwall (from Greater Manchester) as there were simply no beds. Far away from their families. The most unwell patients go to Psych ICU - had no NHS bed for this most of the time so patients had to be sent to the private facility locally. Some questionable methods there as they got paid for the length of stay...

Hmmm. Much of that isn't about cuts, but about a change of how mental health care issues are serviced, and how the limited resources are distributed amongst the hugely greater demands upon them.

I'm not trying to claim anything of it is near perfect, but more and not less resources are going towards mental health issues - but not enough for the increased demand on them.

[clarkete]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Hmmm. Much of that isn't about cuts, but about a change of how mental health care issues are serviced, and how the limited resources are distributed amongst the hugely greater demands upon them.

I'm not trying to claim anything of it is near perfect, but more and not less resources are going towards mental health issues - but not enough for the increased demand on them.

Yes, you won't let it go, however tedious, irrelevant and unsubstantiated your claims.

Just because you believe something, in your heart of hearts, despite numerous claims to the contrary, that doesn't mean you're right or that anyone else is convinced. 

I provided a detailed break down of why your 35 year claim was bunkum (essentially there was a large funding boost during that period) and why I thought it was offensive that you should slate people who work in the NHS for having the temerity to give up their free time to attend stalls and marches to alert people to the seriousness of the current funding issues.  You say it won't change until the electorate vote for it, yet somehow you're offended that they try to alert the electorate?

 

[eFestivals]

Just now, clarkete said:

Yes, you won't let it go, however tedious, irrelevant and unsubstantiated your claims.

Just because you believe something, in your heart of hearts, despite numerous claims to the contrary, that doesn't mean you're right or that anyone else is convinced. 

I provided a detailed break down of why your 35 year claim was bunkum (essentially there was a large funding boost during that period) and why I thought it was offensive that you should slate people who work in the NHS for having the temerity to give up their free time to attend stalls and marches to alert people to the seriousness of the current funding issues.  You say it won't change until the electorate vote for it, yet somehow you're offended that they try to alert the electorate?

 

[

The idea that we are aiming to spend ‘record’ amounts on mental health services is plausible. Five years ago the government was spending half the £11.7 billion that’s planned for 2016/17

https://fullfact.org/health/spending-mental-health-services/

There's issues, but the issues are not what people like to claim of them.

You're being an arse and pretending I'm claiming there's no issues.

 

 

[liamium]

a majority of users trying to access mental health services in this country are having a mare. particularly if you need to work just to survive as much of the help eventually offered is during working hours.

when you get through to it, as has been my experience, the quality of the service and its practitioners is pretty fucking great. trouble is, as more people are rightfully encouraged to acknowledge and address their issues before they put their lives in danger, demand rockets and there's just not enough to go around for those wanting to access it. that's wrong and upsetting but i don't know how we begin to tackle that without a big cash boost for MH

[Trout Mask Replica]

So much astroturf on this thread. 

Lets have that video again, look at all the people. 

 

[Babylon sister]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

but apparently it can't even provide a basic service, and here you are saying how well it's treated you.

Either you're a liar, or something else is.

I'm certainly not a liar! I've had a good experience and think most people have. Cuts are felt in areas of routine surgery that can be cancelled at short notice and bedblocking due to cuts in community services. I'm not saying that there's no room for improvement. Sustaining it most certainly needs to be a priority on any governments manifesto,we cannot continue to  take the NHS for granted it's worth fighting for.  

[eFestivals]

10 minutes ago, clarkete said:

I provided a detailed break down of why your 35 year claim was bunkum (essentially there was a large funding boost during that period)

PMSL

Your words there only prove that the "save the NHS line" has been that bunkum for the 35 years it's been used.

 

10 minutes ago, clarkete said:

 and why I thought it was offensive that you should slate people who work in the NHS for having the temerity to give up their free time to attend stalls and marches to alert people to the seriousness of the current funding issues.

when you have to resort to lies about what I've said, how good are your arguments?

 

10 minutes ago, clarkete said:

You say it won't change until the electorate vote for it, yet somehow you're offended that they try to alert the electorate?

I'm offended (tho not very much) by the lie that you use to do it.

But even more I'm offended by the stupidity that has you thinking the lie will work differently this time to all of the other times.

If we want more we have to pay more. That is *EVERYTHING* about it.

 

[eFestivals]

11 minutes ago, liamium said:

a majority of users trying to access mental health services in this country are having a mare.

I don't disagree.

And the vast majority of that is because the numbers wanting to access those services is growing even faster than the allocated funding

And then on top of that are the local issues caused by those who thought a postcode lottery was a great idea, so the local managers have taken that to heart - but where their intention is to try to provide what they believe are the most wanted services, rather than to fuck anyone over.

 

11 minutes ago, liamium said:

when you get through to it, as has been my experience, the quality of the service and its practitioners is pretty fucking great. trouble is, as more people are rightfully encouraged to acknowledge and address their issues before they put their lives in danger, demand rockets and there's just not enough to go around for those wanting to access it. that's wrong and upsetting but i don't know how we begin to tackle that without a big cash boost for MH

 

[Havors]

16 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

 

https://fullfact.org/health/spending-mental-health-services/

There's issues, but the issues are not what people like to claim of them.

You're being an arse and pretending I'm claiming there's no issues.

 

 

Is this the full fact site that supposedly run by a major tory donor or something?? I remeber resding something about it but I'm becoming sick off political game playing so didn't really pay attention.

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, Babylon sister said:

I'm certainly not a liar!

And i wasn't calling you one.

 

5 minutes ago, Babylon sister said:

I've had a good experience and think most people have. Cuts are felt in areas of routine surgery that can be cancelled at short notice and bedblocking due to cuts in community services. I'm not saying that there's no room for improvement. Sustaining it most certainly needs to be a priority on any governments manifesto,we cannot continue to  take the NHS for granted it's worth fighting for.  

I agree.

It's worth paying for too. 95% don't want to tho (and the other 5% probably don't either).

We only get more if we pay for more.

[Havors]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

And i wasn't calling you one.

 

I agree.

It's worth paying for too. 95% don't want to tho (and the other 5% probably don't either).

We only get more if we pay for more.

Agree here. I don't see a problem with the lib dem policy of 1% extra income tax to help pay for it. People are selfish though and only care about their own pockets 

[Babylon sister]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

And i wasn't calling you one.

 

I agree.

It's worth paying for too. 95% don't want to tho (and the other 5% probably don't either).

We only get more if we pay for more.

Absolutely, it's also time they started telling people how much their treatment costs to increase awareness. I would have no objection to having a letter outlining the treatment I've had and how much it cost. 

[eFestivals]

Just now, Havors said:

People are selfish though and only care about their own pockets 

which is why Corbyn is so popular.