Football 17/18

[pink_triangle]

Did anyone catch Rochdale v Charlton earlier? Great drama with the fans having to wait 10 minutes for the Oldham result. From a neutral perspective I love the last few weeks of the season when everything is on the line. Living in Nottingham I’m tempted to do the County v Coventry play off match as a neutral, could be good entertainment if competitive after the first leg.

[mjsell]

Swansea vs Southampton on tuesday is huge.

I hope it's a draw. I'd love to see west Brom go into the last game of the season with a miniscule chance - would need a Stoke win over Swansea and a 5 goal swing over Southampton who play City. 

Meanwhile, Huddersfield are in all sorts of danger.

[kaosmark2]

5 minutes ago, mjsell said:

5 goal swing over Southampton who play City. 

Meanwhile, Huddersfield are in all sorts of danger.

Which, given it's City, is completely possible.

It's a tough run in, but even if they go down, I fancy them to do a Burnley and come back up within a couple of seasons then stick around next time.

Edited May 5, 2018 by kaosmark2

[mjsell]

1 minute ago, kaosmark2 said:

Which, given it's City, is completely possible.

It's a tough run in, but even if they go down, I fancy them to do a Burnley and come back up within a couple of seasons then stick around next time.

Haha yeah I think the more unlikely result is Stoke beating Swansea than City not putting at least 3 past Southampton

[CRW5252]

3 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

Is Pep a great manager? We have no evidence of how he manages without money. I strongly disagree a manager can use his reputation from being successful with money, to ensure he gets another  big money  move.

Yes, no doubt. This Man City team is one of the best Premier League teams of all time. No previous Man City manager achieved that despite having the same amount of cash.

3 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

Yet many other clubs in the same situation would have made a different decision. With social media today he could never have lasted that long whatever the potential

He lead them to success but it dropped off compared to when they weren’t around. If the City and Chelsea owners came in 10 years earlier, I’m certain he would have won less.

It is easy to point out all the things that were in a successful managers favor and ignore any of the factors that were working against them. This is because the factors working against them aren't memorable as they are not defined by failure but by success. The opposite can be said for an unsuccessful manager (or person in general).

3 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

I didn’t say it was by chance. I said a combination of skill and fortune.

I agree their is an element of fortune but it is much smaller than you make out.

3 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

To say a great manager can adapt whatever the external factors is ridiculous, if a club runs out of money the team are going down the league however great the manager is.

You have given an example of a manager who was unlucky at a given time due to a certain set of circumstances (these circumstances being his club are out of money). I am talking about success over a whole career. A great manager would bounce back from this kind of scenario and achieve success elsewhere. 

2 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

While ex pros are more likely to be better than someone who hasn’t played. I would dispute that being a better player makes you more likely to succeed than an average one. 

There are much less "better players" than there are "average players" so it is always going to seem like the "better players" don't succeed as much as they should. I would say that top players are more likely to be top managers. Of course there are still plenty of managers who succeed without a high level playing career (in fact this getting more and more common).

2 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

In the week Gerrard got the Rangers job, we (Wrexham) appointed Sam Ricketts from a coaching perspective they are pretty much equally qualified and I would say equally likely to succeed or fail. If Ricketts fails he probably won’t get an opportunity to succeed again, Gerrard probably would.

Gerrard has displayed many important skills required to achieve success as a manager already during his playing career (to a greater extent than Rickett's has) and therefore is perceived to have more potential. It's nothing to do with luck.

They would both get opportunities to succeed if they fail at their respective clubs. I have no doubt there would be low league clubs interested in Ricketts if he fails at Wrexham.

2 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

I think that depends how you define deserving. Did Pep and Zidane deserve top jobs, depends what criteria you use.

They both would have worked incredibly hard, as a player and a manager, to get where they were so I believe they did deserve it. 

Edited May 5, 2018 by CRW5252

[kaosmark2]

1 hour ago, CRW5252 said:

Of course there are still plenty of managers who succeed without a high level playing career (in fact this getting more and more common).

More common?

How significant were the playing careers of Wenger, Fergie, Sir Bobby, Mourinho, Clough?

Comparatively, Guardiola and Pochettino had distinguished playing careers (obv one a lot moreso than the other)

[thetime]

11 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

More common?

How significant were the playing careers of Clough?

He was one of the best of his generation, curtailed by injury.

Appearances 274 goals 251.

[pink_triangle]

3 hours ago, kaosmark2 said:

Which, given it's City, is completely possible.

It's a tough run in, but even if they go down, I fancy them to do a Burnley and come back up within a couple of seasons then stick around next time.

I’m waiting for the relegation odds to come out for next season because I think Burnley may offer decent value. 

[CRW5252]

7 hours ago, kaosmark2 said:

More common?

How significant were the playing careers of Wenger, Fergie, Sir Bobby, Mourinho, Clough?

Comparatively, Guardiola and Pochettino had distinguished playing careers (obv one a lot moreso than the other)

Clough and Sir Bobby were both England internationals. 

Ferguson and Wenger are both good examples of older managers who succeeded without a high level playing career. They were exceptions though rather than common. Also Ferguson did play at a relatively high level.

Jose is pretty recent in the grand scheme of things. It was the early 2000s when he made his name.

There are lots of top managers with no/very little pro playing experience at the moment. Some examples: Sarri, Nagelsmann, Tuchel, Jardim, Rodgers, Villas-Boas, Spalletti, Tedesco, Rangnick. 

It's well documented that we are seeing more managers of this kind, particularly in German football.

[Gucci Piggy]

9 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

I’m waiting for the relegation odds to come out for next season because I think Burnley may offer decent value. 

I thought that this year and ended up looking stupid.

[Hugh Jass]

18 hours ago, jyoung said:

@Hugh Jass Must be kicking yourself? Positive signs but presuming you do go down, championship a different kettle of fish. 

Ps. Cheers for doing one over on Spuds.

Again, where was this 10 games ago? Every result cements Pardew’s position as the worst PL appointment ever.

Remarkably we are now only four results away from survival, don’t get me wrong it’s still very, very unlikely, but it was downright impossible a month ago.

Whatever happens this week Moore has earned the right to manage us next season.

Edited May 6, 2018 by Hugh Jass

[Hugh Jass]

10 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

I’m waiting for the relegation odds to come out for next season because I think Burnley may offer decent value. 

I suspect Watford’s policy of chopping and changing managers & playing staff will catch up with them eventually. As Southampton are finding out you’re only one bad appointment away from big trouble.

[TheGayTent]

We are certainties for the drop next season 

[pink_triangle]

1 hour ago, Gucci Piggy said:

I thought that this year and ended up looking stupid.

The value will be much better this season. I'm definitely tempted depending on odds. To me they are the team most likely to have a significant regression.

[WS_Jack_III]

42 minutes ago, Hugh Jass said:

I suspect Watford’s policy of chopping and changing managers & playing staff will catch up with them eventually. As Southampton are finding out you’re only one bad appointment away from big trouble.

I had them to be relegated this year for that very reason.

[Gucci Piggy]

Wenger in

[thetime]

Liverpool finishing 5th and losing the final would be rather amusing.

[JSmurphy]

COME ON SWANSEA.

[pink_triangle]

On ‎5‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 12:01 PM, Hugh Jass said:

.

Whatever happens this week Moore has earned the right to manage us next season.

Its a difficult one because you look at his results and there is no doubt he deserves to get the job, however look at recent footballing history and the record of caretaker managers after they get the job permanently is not great. Im trying to remember successful caretaker managers transitioning to the top job and struggling, maybe I just remember the failures. Can anyone think of good examples of successes?

[eFestivals]

I thought Moore didn't want the job anyway...?

[CRW5252]

38 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Its a difficult one because you look at his results and there is no doubt he deserves to get the job, however look at recent footballing history and the record of caretaker managers after they get the job permanently is not great. Im trying to remember successful caretaker managers transitioning to the top job and struggling, maybe I just remember the failures. Can anyone think of good examples of successes?

Chris Hughton at Newcastle and Garry Monk at Swansea off the top of my head. Nether brilliant, just better than the rest! Certainly much more failures than successes.

I don't think that should stop Moore getting the job though.

[TheGayTent]

Chelsea have done it with success(...?) more than once in recent seasons 

[pink_triangle]

11 minutes ago, CRW5252 said:

Chris Hughton at Newcastle and Garry Monk at Swansea off the top of my head. Nether brilliant, just better than the rest! Certainly much more failures than successes.

I don't think that should stop Moore getting the job though.

They are good examples, I had completely forgotten about them.  Your right both did an ok job.   I would like Moore to get the job, he seems like one of the good guys. I wonder if they would consider Graham Potter being a previous player, although looking at wiki he didn't play that many games at either WBA or Stoke.

[pink_triangle]

6 minutes ago, TheGayTent said:

Chelsea have done it with success(...?) more than once in recent seasons 

Who are you thinking about? I can only think of Di Matteo but didn't he have his success as caretaker manager and failed when he got it permanently?

[WS_Jack_III]

21 minutes ago, CRW5252 said:

Chris Hughton at Newcastle and Garry Monk at Swansea off the top of my head. Nether brilliant, just better than the rest! Certainly much more failures than successes.

I don't think that should stop Moore getting the job though.

Hughton had us 11th in our first season back after winning the Championship. He was sacked because he wouldn't get tough on the lads who were holding out for a better squad bonus.