Brexit Schmexit

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, Wooderson said:

To quote Robocop "Your move, creep."

Your PM is putting power and fear of Paul Dacre ahead of national interest. Ours isnt.

The UK's national interest is not decided by what's good for Ireland &/or the EU.

Your PM is going for your national interests, fair enough. A different sovereign state has different interests and no less of a desire to pursue them.

Whatever deal is done for the UK needs votes to support it in Parliament and also needs to be acceptable to all of the varying interests in the UK to some degree. I don't envy May that task, it would be just about impossible for anyone to achieve.

If she was following Dacre then yesterday's draft would never have been written in the first place.

[ThomThomDrum]

Dont blame Leo for DUP stubbornness

It sounds like the only ones not willing to compromise are the DUP themselves and that is no surprise whatsoever. Its in their political genetic make up

[Wooderson]

Just now, eFestivals said:

The UK's national interest is not decided by what's good for Ireland &/or the EU.

Your PM is going for your national interests, fair enough. A different sovereign state has different interests and no less of a desire to pursue them.

Whatever deal is done for the UK needs votes to support it in Parliament and also needs to be acceptable to all of the varying interests in the UK to some degree. I don't envy May that task, it would be just about impossible for anyone to achieve.

If she was following Dacre then yesterday's draft would never have been written in the first place.

Weakening/tearing up the GFA is in the UK's interest? Fine.

[lost]

6 minutes ago, zahidf said:

So your saying Ireland got everything they wanted in the agreement and May caved in? 

And its up to May to have her government on side. Why did ( as it looks like) she make an agreement she couldnt get HER OWN SIDE to agree with???

She's obviously trying to find a compromise but yes it looks like most Brexiteers in the rest of the UK back the DUP and are happy for them to scupper the deal as they don't see it as a clean brexit. 

I'm seeing comments all over that calling the election and the tories not getting a majority was fantastic as its proved now its saved brexit.

Edited December 5, 2017 by lost

[Wooderson]

Just now, ThomThomDrum said:

Dont blame Leo for DUP stubbornness

It sounds like the only ones not willing to compromise are the DUP themselves and that is no surprise whatsoever. Its in their political genetic make up

They don't seem to have issues with marriage equality and abortion rights diverging within the UK. May's predecessors wouldve told "Arlene" where to go. Appalling PM. Worse than Thatcher.

[Lad]

Just now, ThomThomDrum said:

Dont blame Leo for DUP stubbornness

It sounds like the only ones not willing to compromise are the DUP themselves and that is no surprise whatsoever. Its in their political genetic make up

The Irish are the minions of the EU doing their dirty work.From Wolfe Tone and Padraic Pearse to Juncker and Tusk.

[eFestivals]

12 minutes ago, Wooderson said:

When you hear backbench loser torys saying "tear up the GFA, tear up the CTA" thats all you need to see who is causing the issues here.

Ireland has clearly moved yesterday. A couple times actually. Your PM is the problem Neil. Shes worse than Trump.

she can sign all the bits of paper she wants in Brussels bit if she can't sell them to the country they mean fuck all.

The only "better than Trump" option for her would be to not have made that offer in the first place. She's at least trying, and it was the DUP that fucked it, not her.

And you're saying that nothing of the GTA can be modified, while saying that everything of NI can be modified by the EU at will with no input from NI and for ever-more; that ain't in the GTA either.

If it were the other way round and Ireland had voted out, I guarantee the GTA wouldn't be top of Ireland's priorities, no different. Ireland would pursue its best national interests, not decide all of their national interests around something that isn't part of their nation.

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, Wooderson said:

Weakening/tearing up the GFA is in the UK's interest? Fine.

I'm merely pointing out that it's never going to be the number one whole-UK interest, to over-ride everything else.

There's no specific wish to weaken it as far as I've seen, but if its weakened as a consequence of the pursuit of a higher national interest, that's how it goes.

No nation on earth would do it differently, not even Ireland. Ireland will never be governed by putting the interests of NI above Ireland, will it?

[eFestivals]

47 minutes ago, zahidf said:

hm, i know youve decided the irish govt (like sturgeon, corbyn e.t.c) are the bad guys and should be criticised at all and any points

Tiny mind.

Something worthy of criticism is worthy of criticism. 

I simply pointed out that Leo's 'threat' either gets him all or nothing, when all looks impossible and there's a million options in between which are better for Ireland than nothing.

And now we have the issue of him getting it 'all' (in how he's choosing to present it, anyway) which isn't acceptable to the DUP (as it comes out looking like Dublin ruling Belfast). A little humility from Leo would have been a better thing.

More than just the UK can be an arse about brexit. I've pointed out before, the EU are wanting rights over british soil post-brexit (while not giving the UK the same right over their soil). They've not budged on that still (and even if Ireland was sorted that would still be outstanding).

 

Quote

, but it seems clear the Irish, EU and UK govt had an agreement in place, before the DUP stopped it. I dont see what the Irish has done wrong if May and the DUP werent on the same page

I'm not blaming Ireland for the failure yesterday. It's the pigs ear that it is.

Tho (as just mentioned above) Ireland could have played it a bit better all-round than Leo playing just to his own voters (oooh, look, politician putting his own interests over 'the people', and playing it for within Ireland's border and not for NI who he's suddenly forgotten about. Thought it was only the UK that did that? ).

Edited December 5, 2017 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

40 minutes ago, zahidf said:

So your saying Ireland got everything they wanted in the agreement and May caved in? 

If you listen to Leo, that's pretty much what he's claimed, yup. 

(he's allowed to claim it, but when he does he's not giving a stuff about how it plays in NI, and so suddenly NI isn't important to him)

The wording used reveals something different, tho we don't know what exactly yet.

 

40 minutes ago, zahidf said:

And its up to May to have her government on side.

True. May fucked up big.

Then aga8in, we're probably still nearer a solution via that fuck-up than we would be if she'd not made the offer in the first place (the only alternative if she's not got the votes to carry it).

 

40 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Why did ( as it looks like) she make an agreement she couldnt get HER OWN SIDE to agree with???

If you think any politician has any plan around brexit - or even cancelling it - which will carry the votes in the HoC, you need to point it out to that politician. Cos none think they have a plan that can win.

May might have fucked up, but she's trying and she's prepared to sideline Boris and Gove in getting to a solution.

I hate to praise May, but that's going one better than anyone else.

Cos i'll remind you, Labour have no solution. They're more shit on brexit than the tories.

[zahidf]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Tiny mind.

Something worthy of criticism is worthy of criticism. 

I simply pointed out that Leo's 'threat' either gets him all or nothing, when all looks impossible and there's a million options in between which are better for Ireland than nothing.

And now we have the issue of him getting it 'all' (in how he's choosing to present it, anyway) which isn't acceptable to the DUP (as it comes out looking like Dublin ruling Belfast). A little humility from Leo would have been a better thing.

More than just the UK can be an arse about brexit. I've pointed out before, the EU are wanting rights over british soil post-brexit (while not giving the UK the same right over their soil). They've not budged on that still (and even if Ireland was sorted that would still be outstanding).

 

I'm not blaming Ireland for the failure yesterday. It's the pigs ear that it is.

Tho (as just mentioned above) Ireland could have played it a bit better all-round than Leo playing just to his own voters (oooh, look, politician putting his own interests over 'the people', and playing it for within Ireland's border and not for NI who he's suddenly forgotten about. Thought it was only the UK that did that? ).

But the UK have conceded those points (or it is pointing that way). So the EU's stance is... working?

Ireland gets a good agreement with May. Ireland says 'we did well to get a good agreement'. May comes back and says she cant uphold the agreement.

Again, are you saying the EU should be even nicer than they already are too May because she fucked up and hasnt got a govt she can control?

Lets see what Labour want. 

 

[Wooderson]

"Cuzve May's political weakness we could/should rewrite the GFA". Fine.

[ThomThomDrum]

34 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

If it were the other way round and Ireland had voted out, I guarantee the GTA wouldn't be top of Ireland's priorities, no different. Ireland would pursue its best national interests, not decide all of their national interests around something that isn't part of their nation.

It wouldnt be the other way around because our national interests are to stay in the EU  

I would hope that none of our idiotic politicians would be idiotic enough to trust the public with something so important just to massage a political base they hoped to maintain. "Cameron you utter twat" 

[zahidf]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

If you listen to Leo, that's pretty much what he's claimed, yup. 

(he's allowed to claim it, but when he does he's not giving a stuff about how it plays in NI, and so suddenly NI isn't important to him)

The wording used reveals something different, tho we don't know what exactly yet.

 

True. May fucked up big.

Then aga8in, we're probably still nearer a solution via that fuck-up than we would be if she'd not made the offer in the first place (the only alternative if she's not got the votes to carry it).

 

If you think any politician has any plan around brexit - or even cancelling it - which will carry the votes in the HoC, you need to point it out to that politician. Cos none think they have a plan that can win.

May might have fucked up, but she's trying and she's prepared to sideline Boris and Gove in getting to a solution.

I hate to praise May, but that's going one better than anyone else.

Cos i'll remind you, Labour have no solution. They're more shit on brexit than the tories.

I will concede that at least May is trying to get an agreement sorted. She has done it by caving in though. And the reason for that is her own terrible mistakes with triggering art 50 too early and her election fuck ups 

 

Labour are in opposition. Why should they help their political enemies? Never interupt your opponent making a mistake

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, zahidf said:

But the UK have conceded those points (or it is pointing that way). So the EU's stance is... working?

In case you missed it, the UK has said it doesn't want a border either.

The problem is finding a solution that works. Neither the EU or Ireland are offering one.

 

1 minute ago, zahidf said:

Ireland gets a good agreement with May. Ireland says 'we did well to get a good agreement'. May comes back and says she cant uphold the agreement.

Again, are you saying the EU should be even nicer than they already are too May because she fucked up and hasnt got a govt she can control?

The EU - like everyone - can play it how they like.

But the best play, and the one most likely to work is one where no one is trying to look smug and suggesting they've got everything (and therefore someone else has got nothing). 

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, Wooderson said:

"Cuzve May's political weakness we could/should rewrite the GFA". Fine.

perhaps re-write that as "cos of the Irish people's disunity, they want to force the same on the UK"?

 

Edited December 5, 2017 by eFestivals

[ThomThomDrum]

The DUP came out shouting NOOOOOOOOO before Leo came out saying he was surprised that what the EU and May agreed on was not signed off on.

The DUP acted on what May said to them on the blower and not what they heard coming out of Dublin

 

[zahidf]

Mays predicament. I reckon third choice and hope Labour remainers save her

[zahidf]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

In case you missed it, the UK has said it doesn't want a border either.

The problem is finding a solution that works. Neither the EU or Ireland are offering one.

 

The EU - like everyone - can play it how they like.

But the best play, and the one most likely to work is one where no one is trying to look smug and suggesting they've got everything (and therefore someone else has got nothing). 

But are the EU being smug? They want a deal. May cant deliver one on the border. Is that there fault, esp when they thought they had an agreement?

and they had a solution: they agreed something May went back on!

I also think ireland were a bit more gracious yesterday then u are making out. 

Edited December 5, 2017 by zahidf

[eFestivals]

49 minutes ago, Wooderson said:

They don't seem to have issues with marriage equality and abortion rights diverging within the UK. May's predecessors wouldve told "Arlene" where to go. Appalling PM. Worse than Thatcher.

We all know she's shit. Saying she's shit doesn't get to a solution, and her shitness is your only option to deal with. Get used to it.

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, ThomThomDrum said:

The DUP came out shouting NOOOOOOOOO before Leo came out saying he was surprised that what the EU and May agreed on was not signed off on.

The DUP acted on what May said to them on the blower and not what they heard coming out of Dublin

 

Leo's deputy had been on the TV to tell all the voters how Leo had worked miracles.

And then the DUP came out shouting NOOOOOOOOO.

True story!

[Wooderson]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

perhaps re-write that as "cos of the Irish people's disunity, they want to force the same on the UK"?

 

Blame the Irish, innit.

[zahidf]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

Leo's deputy had been on the TV to tell all the voters how Leo had worked miracles.

And then the DUP came out shouting NOOOOOOOOO.

True story!

You mean he didnt say how they got a terrible deal for Ireland, please dont vote for them again?

 

Thats a reach. All parties post agreements will say what a good deal they got.

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, ThomThomDrum said:

It wouldnt be the other way around because our national interests are to stay in the EU  

I would hope that none of our idiotic politicians would be idiotic enough to trust the public with something so important just to massage a political base they hoped to maintain. "Cameron you utter twat" 

lisbon ref.

You're already that stupid. Worse, you got suckered by lies for the change of heart, as got proven when your banks went tits up.

[bunique]

There was a text into 5Live this morning saying Ireland should leave the EU too so it would solve the problem. The fucking entitlement and arrogance is unbelievable.