Brexit Schmexit

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, Wooderson said:

Blame the Irish, innit.

hey, the Irish problem is the Irish's Ireland problem.

Or do you say those in NI aren't Irish when it suits you?

[eFestivals]

12 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Labour are in opposition. Why should they help their political enemies? Never interupt your opponent making a mistake

yep, Labour are happy to see the poor suffer rather than do the right thing to benefit them. As ever, it's about the Labour Party doing what's good for the Labour Party.

I seem to remember people claiming only the tories or Blairites did that.

[eFestivals]

11 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Mays predicament. I reckon third choice and hope Labour remainers save her

so what do you reckon comes next?

It's all very well being gleeful in your country being fucked up and those you pretend to care for getting shafted, but do you have anything beyond your glee at the pain that will be coming onto you?

 

[Wooderson]

Just now, eFestivals said:

hey, the Irish problem is the Irish's Ireland problem.

Or do you say those in NI aren't Irish when it suits you?

Well it ain't like Teresa May has thought it through much over the past 18 months. Vulgar incompetence.

To repeat myself, Dubliners don't care about the North. Its a horrible place. We just don't want internecine conflict starting again.

If the smug line of thinking youve illustrated above is a widely held view, that would be inevitable.

[Lad]

Efestivals volleying the Oirishers all over the forum here. 

I'm very fair me.You can't count twitter boy cos he off to Alabama with a banjo on his knee and he's thick.

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, bunique said:

There was a text into 5Live this morning saying Ireland should leave the EU too so it would solve the problem. The fucking entitlement and arrogance is unbelievable. 

If leo is allowed to say the UK has to stay in the SM/CU, why can't the opposite also be said, and why is one entitlement and arrogance and the other not?

There's some whooping double standards about, just as there's laughable bollocks for blaming May for Ireland's disunity. Ireland has been practicing disunity for 150 years at least.

[zahidf]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

so what do you reckon comes next?

It's all very well being gleeful in your country being fucked up and those you pretend to care for getting shafted, but do you have anything beyond your glee at the pain that will be coming onto you?

 

Hard Brexit is a choice.

If its causing too many problems and pain? stay in the SM and CMU, or cancel Brexit. Those are valid options

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, Wooderson said:

Well it ain't like Teresa May has thought it through much over the past 18 months. Vulgar incompetence.

To repeat myself, Dubliners don't care about the North. Its a horrible place. We just don't want internecine conflict starting again.

If the smug line of thinking youve illustrated above is a widely held view, that would be inevitable.

Then the UK is a slave to Ireland and the counter-invasion won't be long.

[ThomThomDrum]

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

lisbon ref.

You're already that stupid. Worse, you got suckered by lies for the change of heart, as got proven when your banks went tits up.

And the Nice Ref. Whats your point? Both referendum were making us more European not less. Anyway Im not saying the Irish public are not stupid enough to vote for anything stupid at any time (but we are traditionally a hell of a lot more pro EU than not). Its actually my firm belief that the public anywhere wielding democratic power is stupid enough to vote for pretty much anything. What I said was I would hope our politicians were not stupid enough to place the question of staying in or out of the EU in the hands of the public just to serve a silly little in party political gain, which failed spectacularly 

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Hard Brexit is a choice.

If its causing too many problems and pain? stay in the SM and CMU, or cancel Brexit. Those are valid options

Hard brexit is Jez's choice.

Get back to me when your other suggestions can get the required votes.

[Wooderson]

"Invasions." "150 years". Good man, Neil. I'm not surprised at all tbh.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, ThomThomDrum said:

And the Nice Ref. Whats your point? Both referendum were making us more European not less. Anyway Im not saying the Irish public are not stupid enough to vote for anything stupid at any time (but we are traditionally a hell of a lot more pro EU than not). Its actually my firm belief that the public anywhere wielding democratic power is stupid enough to vote for pretty much anything. What I said was I would hope our politicians were not stupid enough to place the question of staying in or out of the EU in the hands of the public just to serve a silly little in party political gain, which failed spectacularly 

and I was just pointing out that essentially that's already happened in Ireland - and diverging* from NI wasn't an issue for the Irish govt at that point.

(* which might have happened via a two-treaty EU, for example).

Meanwhile there's a separate electorate in NI and it's allowed it's own concerns, different to Ireland's.

[ThomThomDrum]

"Disunity" in Ireland  

There is no union in Ireland, just some agreements that have the affect of quieting down some of the mad nutters who like to kill and mame.

Norn Iron is part of that great Union that shows the best sort of unity, the UK. All on the same page are the Northern Irish, Scots, Londoners and English. Eh? True unity  

[eFestivals]

22 minutes ago, zahidf said:

You mean he didnt say how they got a terrible deal for Ireland, please dont vote for them again?

 

Thats a reach. All parties post agreements will say what a good deal they got.

you can say it's a good deal while admitting you had to make concessions.

But anyway, it's a minor part. I'm merely mentioning that the Irish govt might have played it better - for all of Ireland - than they did.

I'm not thinking it would have made a difference yesterday, tho it probably would have helped get somewhere off the back of yesterday's failure.

[ThomThomDrum]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

Meanwhile there's a separate electorate in NI and it's allowed it's own concerns, different to Ireland's.

But that electorate already voted to stay in the EU but May has given way too much power to the loons. Utter farce

Edited December 5, 2017 by ThomThomDrum

[eFestivals]

Just now, ThomThomDrum said:

"Disunity" in Ireland  

There is no union in Ireland

The point, exactly.

Which is why different paths is not an unreasonable want from either side. It's what sovereignty is about, the right to choose your *own* path.

[eFestivals]

Just now, ThomThomDrum said:

But that electorate already voted to stay in the EU but May has give way too much power to the loons. Utter farce

So did Bristol. Are we having regulatory union with Ireland too?

Back in the real world, it was a whole-UK vote and a whole-UK decision.

Ireland didn't have a patchwork of places accept the Lisbon treaty and only the rejectors got a re-vote, did it? 

[ThomThomDrum]

Just now, eFestivals said:

So did Bristol. Are we having regulatory union with Ireland too?

Back in the real world, it was a whole-UK vote and a whole-UK decision.

Ireland didn't have a patchwork of places accept the Lisbon treaty and only the rejectors got a re-vote, did it? 

The whole of the UK didnt vote for the DUP but that tail is wagging the dog now. Pretty much as was mentioned at the time when the Tories jumped into bed with them. 

There is a deal to be had right now and its acceptable to most on the two islands, no? Yet you have the DUP holding the power.  How the Tories couldnt see doing a deal with them was a stupid thing is mad, especially at a time when Brexit was going to dominate. 

[eFestivals]

24 minutes ago, Wooderson said:

Well it ain't like Teresa May has thought it through much over the past 18 months. Vulgar incompetence.

Look, I disagree with the angle she's choosing to take, but I do recognise she's following thru on a public vote, and a public vote where there's no majority for any of the options (and within the HoC, too).

And i'm not even going to say the election was a stupid idea, because she was hoping to get a majority within the HoC for a single idea of brexit (and something softer than the latest Boris/Gove version).

 

24 minutes ago, Wooderson said:

To repeat myself, Dubliners don't care about the North. Its a horrible place. We just don't want internecine conflict starting again.

If the smug line of thinking youve illustrated above is a widely held view, that would be inevitable.

It's made just as inevitable by Ireland's insistence on the worst possible outcome as it is by anything the UK is trying to do.

[zahidf]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

Look, I disagree with the angle she's choosing to take, but I do recognise she's following thru on a public vote, and a public vote where there's no majority for any of the options (and within the HoC, too).

And i'm not even going to say the election was a stupid idea, because she was hoping to get a majority within the HoC for a single idea of brexit (and something softer than the latest Boris/Gove version).

 

It's made just as inevitable by Ireland's insistence on the worst possible outcome as it is by anything the UK is trying to do.

except Ireland and May HAD an agreement. The irish position isnt as bad or inflexible as you are making out

[zahidf]

21 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Hard brexit is Jez's choice.

Get back to me when your other suggestions can get the required votes.

I think IF the govt position was soft brexit, the remain centred PLP will vote for it to let that go ahead (despite Corbyns view)

[ThomThomDrum]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

It's made just as inevitable by Northern Ireland's/DUP insistence on the worst possible outcome as it is by anything the rest of the UK is trying to do.

Fixed

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, ThomThomDrum said:

The whole of the UK didnt vote for the DUP but that tail is wagging the dog now.

Yep. I don't like it but i do accept it, and don't fall into bullshit land about it. If Labour were in power the SNP would be the tail wagging the dog in just the same way (tho perhaps with an outcome you'd prefer).

Those DUP MPs have as much right to their HoC votes as all other MPs.

To do otherwise is to disenfranchise the part of NI which you don't like.

4 minutes ago, ThomThomDrum said:

Pretty much as was mentioned at the time when the Tories jumped into bed with them. 

and the realistic alternative to the tories jumping into bed with them....?

The only way Labour could have a majority is if Labour jumped into bed with the DUP.

 

4 minutes ago, ThomThomDrum said:

There is a deal to be had right now

well, there clearly isn't.

There's only a deal if all necessary parties agree - and that includes the UK being able to carry the votes in the HoC for that plan.

 

4 minutes ago, ThomThomDrum said:

and its acceptable to most on the two islands, no? Yet you have the DUP holding the power.  

was it just last week that your own govt nearly fell apart, and has a non-main party holding a veto over the govt's plans?

 

4 minutes ago, ThomThomDrum said:

How the Tories couldnt see doing a deal with them was a stupid thing is mad, especially at a time when Brexit was going to dominate. 

it it hadn't been the tories it would be Labour.

And any plan has to be able to carry HoC votes, and there's no option which can.

The UK is fucked up. It's not particularly about the tories or the DUP.

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, zahidf said:

except Ireland and May HAD an agreement. The irish position isnt as bad or inflexible as you are making out

May only has an agreement if she's got the HoC votes to carry it thru.

And there's probably no plan that the HoC would vote thru - certainly not SM/CU, or remaining.

May's at least trying. 

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, ThomThomDrum said:

Fixed

it's not NI, the DUP, or the UK saying they want the hardest of borders if no-borders can't be done.