Brexit Schmexit

[ThomThomDrum]

I'm still somewhat amazed she managed to hang on after that election fuck up. 

These guys do tickle me

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2017/12/05/it-would-only-cost-3bn-to-sink-northern-ireland-into-the-sea-may-casually-tells-cabinet/?utm_source=WWN_Facebook_Page&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=Social_Link&utm_content=Article

 

[zahidf]

5 hours ago, eFestivals said:

they've lost already. They lost when May offered the deal she did the other day. 

Boris has to come out of the woodwork and challenge May, or they have to run away and shut their gob (which is what i reckon Boris wants, I don't think he'd want the humiliation of losing).

HERESSSS BORIS

 

[LJS]

1 hour ago, pink_triangle said:

 

What other option did she have with the way the results worked out? The SNP or lib dems weren't willing to prop the torys up. The only other option was the DUP, SNP, Plaid, Lib Dems and Green all wagging labours tail.

She had the option of not putting us through  an unnecessary election for exactly the same selfish party political reasons as her predecessor our us through an unnecessary EU referendum. 

Edited December 5, 2017 by LJS

[LJS]

19 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I'm not sure there was a huge call for another election either from the electorate or torys in marginal seats.

Even if there was an election it could easily have given the same result or SNP wagging labours tail. The fact that 3rd (snp) and 4th (lib dems) weren't willing to work with 1st always made things challenging.

Glad to see you prefer a Tory government propped up by anti gay marriage, anti abortion bigots than a labour government "held to ransom" by the pro  choice, pro gay marriage, pro 90% of the labour manifesto SNP.

 

[LJS]

11 hours ago, eFestivals said:

hey, the Irish problem is the Irish's Ireland problem.

Or do you say those in NI aren't Irish when it suits you?

Hey, the Irish problem is very much the UK's Ireland problem. 

If you think we can wash our hands of it, you are more of an idiot than you think I am.

[Comfy Bean]

1 hour ago, pink_triangle said:

I'm not sure there was a huge call for another election either from the electorate or torys in marginal seats.

Even if there was an election it could easily have given the same result or SNP wagging labours tail. The fact that 3rd (snp) and 4th (lib dems) weren't willing to work with 1st always made things challenging.

“ challenging “.

Shambles more like. It’s bizarre that you and Neil prefer what we have over Corbyn propped up by Sturgeon. All that lefty no nuke stuff must be stamped on to preserve the glorious Union I suppose.

The DUP seem to be demanding a worse deal for the folk they represent than the one nearly signed off. It’s almost funny...and all in the name of British unionism.

[pink_triangle]

6 hours ago, LJS said:

She had the option of not putting us through  an unnecessary election for exactly the same selfish party political reasons as her predecessor our us through an unnecessary EU referendum. 

I would agree with that, however once that decision was made, I don't think she had any other options. I would have preferred lib Dems or SNP to have propped the government up,but these options werent on the table.

[eFestivals]

11 hours ago, feral chile said:

Are there any signs that he's genuinely changed his mind?

surely Momentum are looking at the flaming he's getting for not providing an alternative.

Corbyn is a 40 year brexiter. McD is a brexiter. Lansman is a brexiter. Milne is a brexiter. (and the other geezer, who's name escapes me).

Jez is quite happy to take policy advice from these people, and says he doesn't care &/or want to know if they're brexiters.

Work it out.

[eFestivals]

11 hours ago, LJS said:

So, jez has been upgraded from not campaigning very hard to leading the charge.

Whatever you can accuse Jeremy of, he certainly led fuck all charges during the euref.

Jez campaigned half-heartedly, and in a manner which gave the nod that it was OK to vote out.

I said he that his very first speech of the EUref campaign was like that, immediately after that speech. You can find the post in this thread.

You're imagining I'm saying something different to what i always have done (from long before Jez could get any blame for a loss)..

And meanwhile, we now all know know with certainty that he campaigned half-heartedly.

[pink_triangle]

5 hours ago, Comfy Bean said:

“ challenging “.

Shambles more like. It’s bizarre that you and Neil prefer what we have over Corbyn propped up by Sturgeon. All that lefty no nuke stuff must be stamped on to preserve the glorious Union I suppose.

The DUP seem to be demanding a worse deal for the folk they represent than the one nearly signed off. It’s almost funny...and all in the name of British unionism.

Nope, I would prefer labour and SNP but the results didn't make it a viable option. I do however have some concerns with SNP. Plaid or the northern Irish parties taking on that role, as I would prefer it to be with a party who represents the majority of the country and has to defend their record accordingly in the majority of polling booths.

With the result first preference would have been the lib Dems propping up the torys. My second preference would have been SNP propping them up.

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, LJS said:

 

she'd be pulling the strings exactly as the DUP are with the tories.

May might be a fuck-up, but she knew why she was asking for a strong mandate.

And what happened after the last time the tories were in a coalition and had to jump to another's tune? The tories got returned with a greater number of seats so they didn't have to jump to another's tune.

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, ThomThomDrum said:

I know why she did it. Political self preservation post calling an election and getting it disastrously wrong. It was the only move she had to save her ass.

while that's true, it was also the only sane political outcome.

She could have called another election of course, but that would have likely got her a bigger majority as it would have removed her.

 

8 hours ago, ThomThomDrum said:

But giving the DUP real power was never going to turn out well for the UK. She should have taken a fall for her country, stepped down and allowed y'all to vote again (don't know if that technically was a possibility?) 

and yet you cannot say what the dup are asking for here which is unreasonable.

Just because you disagree with it because it's bad for your own different country doesn't make it an unreasonable want of the dup.

 

8 hours ago, ThomThomDrum said:

She fucked up something fierce 

or the British electorate did.

It's not her who created the parliamentary numbers she has to work with, after all.

 

8 hours ago, ThomThomDrum said:

What another election would have got ye who knows but if it didn't include the DUP in Government then I'd say you would have been better off

so the parties you disagree with can never have a role in govt?

We get you don't like them, but denying them their say &/or influence is not democracy. Your own PM has to jump to another's tune.

[eFestivals]

7 hours ago, LJS said:

She had the option of not putting us through  an unnecessary election for exactly the same selfish party political reasons as her predecessor our us through an unnecessary EU referendum. 

so you're now against Scotland having an unnecessary indy ref, because of the chaos it would cause?

And you'd definitely be against a 52% victory getting the right to do indy?

[eFestivals]

7 hours ago, LJS said:

Glad to see you prefer a Tory government propped up by anti gay marriage, anti abortion bigots than a labour government "held to ransom" by the pro  choice, pro gay marriage, pro 90% of the labour manifesto SNP.

 

Oh look, you're too dumb to realise that the alternative to the tories propped up by anti gay marriage, anti abortion bigots would be Labour and the SNP propped up by anti gay marriage, anti abortion bigots

[eFestivals]

7 hours ago, LJS said:

Hey, the Irish problem is very much the UK's Ireland problem. 

If you think we can wash our hands of it, you are more of an idiot than you think I am.

Who is washing their hands of it? I can't see anyone doing that.

But it's a simple fact that NI is not regarded as special case by others in the UK. Your very own glorious leader made plain just 2 days ago that it's not a special case as far as she's concerned.

It's good to see you criticising Sturgeon for once.

[eFestivals]

5 hours ago, Comfy Bean said:

“ challenging “.

Shambles more like. It’s bizarre that you and Neil prefer what we have over Corbyn propped up by Sturgeon.

What's a challenging shambles here is your maths, and your intelligence and understanding.

It would be Corbyn propped up by Sturgeon propped up by the DUP.

The tories propped up by the DUP is no preference of mine, but it is the reality of your and mine world.

If people like you in Scotland hadn't been lying about the pandas, or attacking Labour instead of the tories, it couldn't have happened.

Edited December 6, 2017 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

6 hours ago, Comfy Bean said:

The DUP seem to be demanding a worse deal for the folk they represent than the one nearly signed off. It’s almost funny...and all in the name of British unionism.

and Sturgeon is saying "I'll have some of that too", well aware that the DUP have agreed a better outline deal than Sturgeon wanted for Scotland in the doc she published last December.

Ohhh, but shall we forget all about that, cos it's a bit inconvenient for people like you to admit the DUP want a better deal for the UK than Sturgeon wants for Scotland.

[LJS]

48 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

and Sturgeon is saying "I'll have some of that too", well aware that the DUP have agreed a better outline deal than Sturgeon wanted for Scotland in the doc she published last December.

 

1: they haven't agreed the deal.

2: you said sturgeon's proposal was impossible.

48 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Ohhh, but shall we forget all about that, cos it's a bit inconvenient for people like you to admit the DUP want a better deal for the UK than Sturgeon wants for Scotland.

The DUP want a better deal for the DUP.   All they care about is avoiding anything that makes a united Ireland more likely.

[Comfy Bean]

50 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

Ohhh, but shall we forget all about that, cos it's a bit inconvenient for people like you to admit the DUP want a better deal for the UK than Sturgeon wants for Scotland.

I think you are forgetting ( your not ) how the vast majority of people in Scotland voted. People like me and them hold quite different views on Europe than the Tories and the DUP.

Unless of course your back to claiming Scotland isn’t a country.

My point which you are deflecting from was that the DUP seem to be refusing to allow a deal to go through that would be better for the folk they represent.

Why is this if it’s not about your wonderful and all important Union. Do the DUP think they have huge immigration problems or summit ?

[Comfy Bean]

28 minutes ago, LJS said:

 

1: they haven't agreed the deal.

2: you said sturgeon's proposal was impossible.

The DUP want a better deal for the DUP.   All they care about is avoiding anything that makes a united Ireland more likely.

Agreed.

They can’t even stomach the thought of Ireland appearing more united.

The thought that their United Kingdom prime minister clearly doesn’t really give much of a shit about them must rile them though.

[Comfy Bean]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Jez campaigned half-heartedly, and in a manner which gave the nod that it was OK to vote out.

 

Ah.....

So Corbyn is now such a powerful and inspiring leader that the merest nod from him had folk voting to leave.

Its all his fault and nowt to do with the Tories or DUP. 

I see now how you feel sorry for May.

[eFestivals]

48 minutes ago, LJS said:

1: they haven't agreed the deal.

They've indicated that regulatory alignment with NI is (in principle) acceptable, as long as the regs are the same as the UK works to.

There's a fair bit of comment around at the mo that their main problem with the deal was Leo and co being a bit too boastful for them, rather than other things. Childish, but not unexpected from the DUP who don't want NI to appear to be under Dublin rule.

48 minutes ago, LJS said:

2: you said sturgeon's proposal was impossible.

cos it was a very different proposal, that would have required a hard border between Scotland and England. 

Did you miss that bit?

48 minutes ago, LJS said:

The DUP want a better deal for the DUP.   All they care about is avoiding anything that makes a united Ireland more likely.

Yep. Cos they've noticed that most of their trade isn't with the EU.

People like you in Scotland don't seem to have realised the same (to a much greater extent, too) for your own region.

[eFestivals]

49 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

I think you are forgetting ( your not ) how the vast majority of people in Scotland voted.

and you're forgetting that how people in Scotland voted doesn't mean shit for a whole-UK decision that people in Scotland voted for.

 

49 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

People like me and them hold quite different views on Europe than the Tories and the DUP.

No shit sherlock.

 

49 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

Unless of course your back to claiming Scotland isn’t a country.

It isn't. Have you read the act of union?

But if it is, it means fuck all. Scotland is not sovereign, and self-determined that status and everything it means.

 

49 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

My point which you are deflecting from was that the DUP seem to be refusing to allow a deal to go through that would be better for the folk they represent.

The folk they represent are quite comfortable with a hard brexit, as you don't seem to have noticed.

 

49 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

Why is this if it’s not about your wonderful and all important Union. Do the DUP think they have huge immigration problems or summit ?

You really don't get it, do you? :lol:

I don't give a shit about 'the union', apart from it making irrefutable practical sense for a small island.

(the same principle applies for me with Ireland, and proves I don't give a fuck about the union for the current union's sake )

if you and yours want to vote indy, you do it. Just don't be the same lying c**ts as Farage and Boris and Gove in order to achieve it. 

Which you were last time you tried.

If you can't convince your countrymen with the truth, they don't want indy.

[ThomThomDrum]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

while that's true, it was also the only sane political outcome.

She could have called another election of course, but that would have likely got her a bigger majority as it would have removed her.

If it was as likely they would have called it. They knew it wasnt as likely. Maybe a percived "sane" outcome from what ultimaetly proved after the event to be an insane choice.

Quote

 

Just because you disagree with it because it's bad for your own different country doesn't make it an unreasonable want of the dup.

Nothing to do with my country. They are horrible bigots I dont agree with full stop. If their likes are voted into power anywhere in the world id feel the same. Unfortunately im exposed to the likes of them in the everyday media I choose to read

Quote

or the British electorate did.

It's not her who created the parliamentary numbers she has to work with, after all.

 

She called the election and didnt get the result she so arrogantly expected. She fucked up. She should have got the boot for her misjudgment and mishandling of the election. Its all on her. She did not have to call it and she would be in a stronger position today had she not. That is a fail

Quote

so the parties you disagree with can never have a role in govt?

We get you don't like them, but denying them their say &/or influence is not democracy. Your own PM has to jump to another's tune.

I never want to see parties I disagree with in government. I disagree with them for a reason. Thats not to say that it cant happen and suggesting that I believe the rules should be different so they cant is utter bollox. I can voice an opinion as to why I believe its not ideal to have a party such as the DUP sharing power without thinking the system should prevent such parties sharing power. 

Parties I disagree with are always in power Neil. I understand the game. 

Irish PMs in my lifetime have nearly always had to placate a minor partner, or as it is currently, a majority in opposition. Thats politics. 

 

Ultimately the fuck up here is with decisions of the last two Tory leaders. At least Dave fell on his sword. In that context one hopes if the electorate gets their chance again they will tell the Tories no thanks, but id not be so optimistic, as we know the will of the masses is a very funny thing. 

 

[eFestivals]

29 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

They can’t even stomach the thought of Ireland appearing more united.

Nope, they can't stand the thought of having to jump to the instructions of govt that's nothing to do with NI.

Funnily enough, your same glorious leader expresses that same sentiment endlessly. You have noticed that, haven't you?

 

29 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

The thought that their United Kingdom prime minister clearly doesn’t really give much of a shit about them must rile them though.

You really should pay attention, and not be idiot.

May has agreed something that the DUP (in theory) agree with. 
May has agreed something that (in theory) every remainer shouldn't have a problem with (if accepting that brexit won the vote and has the right to act on that vote. Reject that one if you like, and reject a vote for S.indy while you're at it).
may has agreed something which (in theory) she believes to be the best available outcome for the UK.
May has agreed something which is a better outcome for Scotland than 'for Scotland' Sturgeon proposed.