Brexit Schmexit

[Comfy Bean]

52 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Hopefully the leader of the opposition will start to show some interest in Brexit now.

You can call him by his name, it won’t hurt :-)

He’s been quite clear on this. It’s fine if you don’t agree with him. 

His position has been clear for decades.

Some on here say that May has it all under control. Time will tell.

[zahidf]

Tories calling for deselections for 'traitors'

Tory commentators: Momentum are angry fanatics aggressively pursuing anyone who dares deviate from their ideological doctrine 

Also Tory commentators: DESELECT BREXIT SPLITTERS 

Edited December 14, 2017 by zahidf

[zahidf]

1 hour ago, pink_triangle said:

Hopefully the leader of the opposition will start to show some interest in Brexit now.

is EVERYTHING an attack on Corbyn when there is Brexit news?

And labour voted for the amendment. So how is that NOT showing interest?

[pink_triangle]

6 hours ago, zahidf said:

is EVERYTHING an attack on Corbyn when there is Brexit news?

And labour voted for the amendment. So how is that NOT showing interest?

Brexit is the biggest news of the day. To me it is unacceptable that Corbyn hardly mentions it. The leader of the opposition should  be leading the way. He has an opportunity to speak every Wednesday. It's fine voting for amendments, but I want to see the leadership more vocal, instead of waiting for the torys to fuck up.

It seems at present our hopes lay in the hand of the people on the front page (one of which is my mp) who in all fairness seem to have become the unofficial opposition when it comes to Brexit. It looks like they are the same traitors from the previous photo, so they seem to be working together.

Edited December 14, 2017 by pink_triangle

[pink_triangle]

6 hours ago, Comfy Bean said:

You can call him by his name, it won’t hurt :-)

He’s been quite clear on this. It’s fine if you don’t agree with him. 

His position has been clear for decades.

Some on here say that May has it all under control. Time will tell.

So clear that he supported remain in the referendum? I expect the leader of the opposition  (whoever it is) to be a significant voice on such a huge issue, not someone hiding in the background.

[eFestivals]

11 hours ago, ThomThomDrum said:

Another moment  for May to rue the day she arrogantly called that GE. Oh dear! 

Nah. There's a sting in the tail with what happened last night.

When it comes to a vote on the brexit deal, May might not have a majority.... so ...

That means Labour will have a choice - to vote to fuck up the country, or to vote for whatever the tory deal is.

So much for Corbyn's plan of "the tories own it". It's all going to fall down around his ears.

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

Hopefully the leader of the opposition will start to show some interest in Brexit now.

he's keeping quiet because his head is empty, and not because he has a cunning plan.

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, feral chile said:

I've read that Labour is deliberately being ambivalent so as to keep both sides on board. Given that you've previously favoured strategic policies to attract voters, would you support this?

Funnily enough, when I've said Labour need to broaden their offer to widen the numbers it attracts, people like you (not necessarily you) have screamed 'principles'.

I've never suggested that Labour give up it's principles, just that it tries to get elected.

Meanwhile, Jez has given up all principles around brexit.... or it is his principle. Take your pick.

 

9 hours ago, feral chile said:

For the record, I'd respect them more for integrity. I don't want him to be harvesting support by being strategic.

It only works out in that 'strategic' way if *ONLY* the tories deal with everything about brexit.

That got screwed by last night's vote. Labour MPs will have give brexit their vote, or cause the UK to have the hardest brexit.

 

9 hours ago, feral chile said:

Supposing keeping both sides sweet was a vote winner, would you be in favour?

It won't hold, whatever Jez thinks.

People were prepared to give Labour their vote back in June to 'soften' the brexit that we might get (including to halt it completely).

That's no longer relevant. Plenty of the electorate will not vote again for a brexit-friendly Labour, and Labour will now have to back May's brexit or cause a hard brexit.

Jez has fucked it. Last night killed his hopes of being PM, i'm sure.

[zahidf]

8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Nah. There's a sting in the tail with what happened last night.

When it comes to a vote on the brexit deal, May might not have a majority.... so ...

That means Labour will have a choice - to vote to fuck up the country, or to vote for whatever the tory deal is.

So much for Corbyn's plan of "the tories own it". It's all going to fall down around his ears.

depends on what the options are: the MPS can put in clauses after all

Also, May has a majority and there are enough labour brexiters on the backbenches (hoeey, field, skinner e.t.c) that it will probably pass without labours help.

I knew the govts defeat last night would somehow lead to a dig at corbyn!

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, Comfy Bean said:

Some on here say that May has it all under control. Time will tell.

Do they?

i've pointed out that May has succeeded - SO FAR - in getting what she said she wants, and that things look much better now for her really getting that outcome, but the devil will be in the detail.

It could still go tits up, but it no longer looks like certain failure (cos it turns out the EU were bullshitting as much as others, who knew? :D)

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, pink_triangle said:

So clear that he supported remain in the referendum?

did he?

We've got 40 years of public record of him being against the EU.

We've got his word that he voted in favour of remaining, but we've also had his word that he didn't campaign for remain half-heartedly ... when we all know that he DID campaign for remain half-heartedly cos he proved it back in May and June this year.

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, zahidf said:

depends on what the options are: the MPS can put in clauses after all

so Jez will add in a "remain in the EU" clause? The same Jez who doesn't want to remain in the EU?

It wouldn't mean shit if he did anyway. He might as well be voting to make everyone millionaires.

The real-world choice will be to vote for May's brexit, or to shit on the country by causing a worse brexit. He's not going to fool anyone into thinking other 'choices' are valid.

 

3 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Also, May has a majority and there are enough labour brexiters on the backbenches (hoeey, field, skinner e.t.c) that it will probably pass without labours help.

You might be right about that, tho you might not.

But whatever, Labour are going to have to take a stance on it, and whichever stance they take will cost them votes.

 

3 minutes ago, zahidf said:

I knew the govts defeat last night would somehow lead to a dig at corbyn!

Until Corbyn has a meaningful position on brexit, the only option he gives all of us is one where we have to make it up for him.

I'm 'making it up' from his 40 year *proven* history, where he's voted with the brexit headbangers *every* time.

You're making it up from nothing at all.

If anyone is having a dig, the biggest digs are the ones based only in fantasies.

[feral chile]

7 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Funnily enough, when I've said Labour need to broaden their offer to widen the numbers it attracts, people like you (not necessarily you) have screamed 'principles'.

I've never suggested that Labour give up it's principles, just that it tries to get elected.

Meanwhile, Jez has given up all principles around brexit.... or it is his principle. Take your pick.

 

It only works out in that 'strategic' way if *ONLY* the tories deal with everything about brexit.

That got screwed by last night's vote. Labour MPs will have give brexit their vote, or cause the UK to have the hardest brexit.

 

It won't hold, whatever Jez thinks.

People were prepared to give Labour their vote back in June to 'soften' the brexit that we might get (including to halt it completely).

That's no longer relevant. Plenty of the electorate will not vote again for a brexit-friendly Labour, and Labour will now have to back May's brexit or cause a hard brexit.

Jez has fucked it. Last night killed his hopes of being PM, i'm sure.

I don't think it'll hold either, because the people who amazingly thought corbyn was on their side in supporting Remain have cottoned on and now hate him.

I don't like the thought that they're deliberately avoiding the issue so as to mislead the public. I think labour should have done more to promote immigration, and would have at least respected them for stating where they stood.

I'm inclined to think they're trying to play both sides against the middle (!) and I don't approve of it, especially from the one politician who's got where he is by his persona of being a principled man.

I can, however, understand the bind he's in, as he's probably trying to be electable, and having to stifle huis own views for the greater good. At least, I hope that's what he's doing. The problem is, it could backfire if people start thinking of him as no different from everyone else.

It's a tricky one for him, because his whole appeal is that he's not slick and smarmy. And the more polished (and I suppose, the more competent, as he avoids any naïve cockups caused by inexperience) he gets, the less his appeal.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, feral chile said:

I'm inclined to think they're trying to play both sides against the middle (!) and I don't approve of it, especially from the one politician who's got where he is by his persona of being a principled man.

I can, however, understand the bind he's in, as he's probably trying to be electable, and having to stifle huis own views for the greater good. At least, I hope that's what he's doing. The problem is, it could backfire if people start thinking of him as no different from everyone else.

It's a tricky one for him, because his whole appeal is that he's not slick and smarmy. And the more polished (and I suppose, the more competent, as he avoids any naïve cockups caused by inexperience) he gets, the less his appeal.

Oh, it's easy to understand why he's choosing to be mostly-ambivalent. Everyone gets that.

But at some point he's got to get off the fence and take a position; last night's vote has made that unavoidable for him now (tho it was probably unavoidable anyway).

At the time of the future vote, the choice will be supporting May's brexit or a no-deal brexit, the hardest brexit. And if he support's May's brexit Labour are going to 'own' brexit as much as the tories will, and if he votes against he'll be sabotaging the economy (which will cost him support). 

The whole strategy has supposedly been about disassociating Labour from how brexit turns out, which is fine in theory but isn't going to be how it is.

So he might as well take a position now, because when things get to the voting part he'll be able to claim it as principled, rather than look a sap or a saboteur.

[pink_triangle]

18 hours ago, feral chile said:

I've read that Labour is deliberately being ambivalent so as to keep both sides on board. Given that you've previously favoured strategic policies to attract voters, would you support this?

For the record, I'd respect them more for integrity. I don't want him to be harvesting support by being strategic.

Supposing keeping both sides sweet was a vote winner, would you be in favour?

The trouble is if it was a vote winner (which I don't believe it is) by the time labour are in power Brexit has already gone through.

To me Brexit is too important an issue to play the game of hoping the torys mess up. Labour supporters are predominantly remain and I expect a labour leader to be front and centre on this issue. At present we have a dozen Tory Mps who are putting his efforts to shame.

[pink_triangle]

9 hours ago, zahidf said:

 

I knew the govts defeat last night would somehow lead to a dig at corbyn!

Do you think Corbyn is performing strongly on the issue of Brexit? Is the subject important enough to occasionally take up one of his six questions in pmqs.

[feral chile]

3 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

The trouble is if it was a vote winner (which I don't believe it is) by the time labour are in power Brexit has already gone through.

To me Brexit is too important an issue to play the game of hoping the torys mess up. Labour supporters are predominantly remain and I expect a labour leader to be front and centre on this issue. At present we have a dozen Tory Mps who are putting his efforts to shame.

I don't think it's a vote winner. I think it's going to backfire. Whatever he does he's screwed, they're maybe trying to put off the shit hitting the fan as long as possible though.

I just wondered, IF it was, would you think that Corbyn was starting to get the whole electability thing?

or would you interpret him as indecisive or something?

I'm curious whether he could ever be trustworthy in your eyes.

[pink_triangle]

1 hour ago, feral chile said:

I don't think it'll hold either, because the people who amazingly thought corbyn was on their side in supporting Remain have cottoned on and now hate him.

I'm not sure they have, a lot of his supporters just vote how they are told. That's how we have ended up with a leave person leading the party.

[feral chile]

1 minute ago, pink_triangle said:

I'm not sure they have, a lot of his supporters just vote how they are told. That's how we have ended up with a leave person leading the party.

I joined a social media group and I was amazed how angry and betrayed they all were. How come they didn't know his views?

I don't know if they were labour voters, however, as it was a Brexit related group.

[pink_triangle]

5 minutes ago, feral chile said:

I don't think it's a vote winner. I think it's going to backfire. Whatever he does he's screwed, they're maybe trying to put off the shit hitting the fan as long as possible though.

I just wondered, IF it was, would you think that Corbyn was starting to get the whole electability thing?

or would you interpret him as indecisive or something?

I'm curious whether he could ever be trustworthy in your eyes.

If it was a percieved vote winner I would still expect the labour leader to make a stand over Brexit. I think it's too important an issue to cowardly stay in the background.

My issue with Corbyn is far more about competence than trust.

[pink_triangle]

4 minutes ago, feral chile said:

How come they didn't know his views?

 

They voted how they were told and made judgment on a few words on Twitter, rather than taking the time to research and think for themselves.

[feral chile]

15 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

If it was a percieved vote winner I would still expect the labour leader to make a stand over Brexit. I think it's too important an issue to cowardly stay in the background.

My issue with Corbyn is far more about competence than trust.

Well so would I want him to pick a side. Even if he supports Brexit, which I disagree with.

When do you think he should compromise and when to stick to his principles?

Is it because you think he's out of step with Labour over this?

Edited December 14, 2017 by feral chile

[pink_triangle]

1 hour ago, feral chile said:

Well so would I want him to pick a side. Even if he supports Brexit, which I disagree with.

When do you think he should compromise and when to stick to his principles?

Is it because you think he's out of step with Labour over this?

I think he should compromise on brexit. I think he should realise that most labour voters are pro remain and speak up for them. If he feels he can't ( or doesn't have the talent or intellect) do it, he should step aside.

[feral chile]

1 hour ago, pink_triangle said:

I think he should compromise on brexit. I think he should realise that most labour voters are pro remain and speak up for them. If he feels he can't ( or doesn't have the talent or intellect) do it, he should step aside.

I was just looking for the stats and my search came up with this - interestingly claiming that Corbyn et al persuaded people to vote remain.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/26/corbyn-leader-brexit-labour-rebels-sabotage

The link title was 'corbyn delivered the vote for remain' - I'm not posting this to revisit the rebels argument. First time I've ever seen Corbyn accused of influencing the Remain vote

Found this one now too:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/20/damian-green-remain-voters-should-back-theresa-may

 

Edited December 14, 2017 by feral chile

[LJS]

13 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 

I've never suggested that Labour give up it's principles,  

Oh yes you have.