Brexit Schmexit

[pink_triangle]

5 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

You have to read my whole post not just the line you have quoted in isolation.

I have read the whole lot. I didn't even realise the post was about Scotland when Feral posted. It seems effectively a tax on the richer which while not enough is positive. However it doesn't really demonstrate that most accept they need to pay more. If that is true it would be easy to raise a load more money and not worry about electoral consequences.

 

10 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

. Most people, not the Tories, are comfortable with it. 

Most people are always comfortable if those richer than themselves are paying more, trying to persuade them that they should pay more is a different story.

 

12 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

 

Do you disagree with the free care 

As i have said the devil is in the detail. Care can be offered in various ways from residential, to 4 visits a day, to 24 hour care at home. I'm not clear what Scotland are committing to funding. As I have said previously I am also not against people with expensive houses funding their own care through their assets. I have no strong beliefs about protecting (mainly for the middle classes) inheritance.

 

17 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

 What about the uni costs on further education?

I think free uni predominately helps the middle class. While I'm not particularly against the principle, I would prioritise more policies that predominantly benefit those at the bottom.

[Comfy Bean]

19 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I have read the whole lot. I didn't even realise the post was about Scotland when Feral posted. It seems effectively a tax on the richer which while not enough is positive. However it doesn't really demonstrate that most accept they need to pay more. If that is true it would be easy to raise a load more money and not worry about electoral consequences.

 

Most people are always comfortable if those richer than themselves are paying more, trying to persuade them that they should pay more is a different story.

 

As i have said the devil is in the detail. Care can be offered in various ways from residential, to 4 visits a day, to 24 hour care at home. I'm not clear what Scotland are committing to funding. As I have said previously I am also not against people with expensive houses funding their own care through their assets. I have no strong beliefs about protecting (mainly for the middle classes) inheritance.

 

I think free uni predominately helps the middle class. While I'm not particularly against the principle, I would prioritise more policies that predominantly benefit those at the bottom.

I think most people get the maths. We need to pay more. The Snp new system is a start.

I agree about the electoral consequences. As has been said, it explains the small steps. The snp need to take the voters with them.

Free education predominantly benefits the young. Again I’m happy to pay more to cover this. In theory, they will pay back into the system via their taxes and don’t need to set off in their careers in huge debt.

caring for old folk is expensive as you say but again I’m in favour of the principle and happy to pay tax towards health care.

Education for the young and care for the old with those who can afford it paying more seems pretty sensible but Ruth and co are up in arms. Highest taxed part of the uk etc.

[eFestivals]

20 hours ago, feral chile said:

We might as well draw a line under this, we're never going to reach an agreement and we both agree (I think) that there are more important things to worry about.

The problem is yours, just yours.

Every time you bring it up, I'll point out that you're calling Jez a liar for what Jez said.

There's the facts, and then there's you.

[eFestivals]

20 hours ago, feral chile said:

And who is she holding accountable?

the people responsible.

Leaders lead. The scared hide away.

[eFestivals]

19 hours ago, Comfy Bean said:

It’s another small step in the right direction.

a small step that the SNP feel they need to lie about. Which is a shame. 

If the Scottish people better supported what the SNP are (finally, after tens years of obfuscation) doing the SNP wouldn't need to lie about it.

And it would be better if the SNP weren't loading the savings back onto most poorer people via council tax, a council tax they once said was unfit for purpose but today they're happy to use to fleece the poor.

[eFestivals]

18 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

I didn't realize it was a Scotland thing. Without seeing the sums my gut instinct is that the extra money coming in won't replace the addition costs. I can imagine for example that elderly personal care is a huge cost.

I didn't say the sums don't add up, I merely pointed out that the effects/benefits onto the poorest are the result of Westminster tax changes more than they are tax changes made in Scotland.

Meanwhile, most of the money 'gained' by Holyrood in this budget actually comes from freezing the money Holyrood gives to councils (who will raise council tax, hitting the poor and taking back the income tax saving) and not from these income tax changes.

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, LJS said:

Is there a problem with this?

there is when many (most?) won't be paying less.

Money is given to them via lower income taxes, and then taken back from them via higher council taxes (because the SNP have [real-terms] cut money to councils, and given them permission to hike up their charges).

I have a problem with the associated bullshit more than I do the changes, just to be clear.

[pink_triangle]

7 hours ago, Comfy Bean said:

I think most people get the maths. We need to pay more. The Snp new system is a start.

I agree about the electoral consequences. As has been said, it explains the small steps. The snp need to take the voters with them.

See I don’t think most people do get the maths, I think most people Scottish or non Scottish think it’s people richer than them should be taxed more. It’s quite possible that the SNP have done analysis that those impacted are more likely to be Tory voters and therefore it’s a political move. I don’t think it’s definitely a sign of small steps to those in the middle paying more.

 

7 hours ago, Comfy Bean said:

 

Free education predominantly benefits the young. Again I’m happy to pay more to cover this. In theory, they will pay back into the system via their taxes and don’t need to set off in their careers in huge debt.

 

It predominantly helps the young middle class. In principle I’m not against helping them, but there are younger people I think need help more.

 

7 hours ago, Comfy Bean said:

 

caring for old folk is expensive as you say but again I’m in favour of the principle and happy to pay tax towards health care.

 

Using income locked in property also could help pay for care, it would also hit the richest hardest. The money is no good to the person when they have died. Why do we need to protect inheritances?

[Comfy Bean]

24 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

And it would be better if the SNP weren't loading the savings back onto most poorer people via council tax, a council tax they once said was unfit for purpose but today they're happy to use to fleece the poor.

I’m not convinced you fully grasp the way the council tax works.

If it help, it is means tested unlike drugs for ill folk. Recent changes to fleece folk, as you put it, do not affect the lower bands which is different to how things role in Bristol.

Up here, the 32 authorities have always been able to set their own rates but the govt control the bands. One of many reasons that the universal credit is messier up here.

Your general point around the council tax might have been an interesting one if you hadn’t went all tabloid Snp bad. You just can’t help yourself.

When it was said a while back on another thread that these tax changes would happen you screamed about robbing the rich:-)

[eFestivals]

13 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

I’m not convinced you fully grasp the way the council tax works.

If it help, it is means tested unlike drugs for ill folk. Recent changes to fleece folk, as you put it, do not affect the lower bands which is different to how things role in Bristol.

Up here, the 32 authorities have always been able to set their own rates but the govt control the bands. One of many reasons that the universal credit is messier up here.

Your general point around the council tax might have been an interesting one if you hadn’t went all tabloid Snp bad. You just can’t help yourself.

There's council tax relief here too.

Is higher council tax going to take back from the Scottish-poorest much of their income tax reduction? Yes it is.

Is most of the income tax reduction for those Scottish-poorest paid for by higher taxes on Scots via these SNP changes or by changes in taxes rolled out from Westminster? From Westminster

That's SNP facts, not SNP bad.

 

Quote

When it was said a while back on another thread that these tax changes would happen you screamed about robbing the rich:-)

Fake news.

I've used the phrase "robbing the rich", but only to point out that there is no wholesale Scottish support for higher taxes - apart from when it's "robbing the rich".

Which if you're too thick to understand means "I'm happy for other people to pay extra, but not me".

Edited December 17, 2017 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

8 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

See I don’t think most people do get the maths, I think most people Scottish or non Scottish think it’s people richer than them should be taxed more. It’s quite possible that the SNP have done analysis that those impacted are more likely to be Tory voters and therefore it’s a political move. I don’t think it’s definitely a sign of small steps to those in the middle paying more.

 

It predominantly helps the young middle class. In principle I’m not against helping them, but there are younger people I think need help more.

 

Using income locked in property also could help pay for care, it would also hit the richest hardest. The money is no good to the person when they have died. Why do we need to protect inheritances?

You appear to be saying that rich folk in Scotland are Tories ?

Of course it’s a political move but the direction of raising taxes to protect all that lefty shit like educating young folk and looking after old and ill folk is all about the type of Country they want Scotland to be. They also want to encourage immigration and want that power devolved. No chance will the Tories give us that. Think of the size of wall they would make us build.

Can you quote me saying we need to protect inheritance.

The changes to the tax system are small but progressive in the right direction.

Clear deflection tactics going on here.....plus it’s got nothing to do with Brexit :-)

Scotland didn’t vote for Brexit either which is a fact and atleast relevant to this thread.

Should I still be admiring Mays skills in manoeuvreing us over a cliff in a strong and stable fashion ?

[Comfy Bean]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

Is higher council tax going to take back from the Scottish-poorest much of their income tax reduction? Yes it is.

No. They will only be paying the water and sewerage element of the charge, exactly as they are at the moment.

As I said, your general point on council tax is an interesting one but your making stuff up here mate.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

You appear to be saying that rich folk in Scotland are Tories ?

they often are.

While you say there's none of them in Scotland.

 

2 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

Of course it’s a political move but the direction of raising taxes to protect all that lefty shit like educating young folk and looking after old and ill folk is all about the type of Country they want Scotland to be.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

They also want to encourage immigration and want that power devolved. No chance will the Tories give us that. Think of the size of wall they would make us build.

Because...? Immigrants don't want to live in Scotland.

Immigrants can live in Scotland now. As it's such a great place, care to say why they don't*?

(*obviously, I'm talking averages - where the Scottish average is well-under the UK average).

 

2 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

Scotland didn’t vote for Brexit either which is a fact and atleast relevant to this thread.

Scotland did vote to abide by the brexit vote.

But only the votes you say count actually count. :lol:

Great democracy that is.

 

2 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

Should I still be admiring Mays skills in manoeuvreing us over a cliff in a strong and stable fashion ?

May's skills in lining up a better deal that Sturgeon said Scotland needed?

Or do you want to ignore that particular truth? :lol:

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

No. They will only be paying the water and sewerage element of the charge, exactly as they are at the moment.

depends on the income level.

The sorts you're talking about there are not meaningful income tax payers in the first place to benefit from changes in income tax.

 

2 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

As I said, your general point on council tax is an interesting one but your making stuff up here mate.

Most of the extra money that holyrood has to spend is the result of them making cuts to councils, and fuck all to do with income tax changes.

Fact!

[Comfy Bean]

PT - I think this is quite clearly a sign to those in the middle ( as you put it above ) and top earners that there is only one direction their taxes are going in.

Last year the council tax levy went up but only on the middle and higher banded properties.

Next year their income tax will rise while the lower paid pay less.

I think that most folk affected will be capable of factoring in that they get more for their tax buck up here than in rUK so “should” understand the maths around paying more.

[eFestivals]

18 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

They also want to encourage immigration and want that power devolved.

Care to tell me what having that "power" would change about immigration to Scotland?

Currently, there's free access to Scotland available to all immigrants to the UK.

The only way Scotland could make itself more attractive to immigrants (via an immigration-specific power) would be by paying people to settle in Scotland.

(and they'd take the money and then head south! It happens already with NHS workers and the like!).

Care to show me the people in Scotland who want to pay higher taxes so that money can be given to non-Scots, comfy?

Sturgeon's slogans are all about "for Scotland" not "for forriners".

Edited December 17, 2017 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

depends on the income level.

The sorts you're talking about there are not meaningful income tax payers in the first place to benefit from changes in income tax.

 

Right so you now accept that Scotland’s poorest won’t be paying everything back in via council tax. Glad we sorted that out :-)

Can you explain how further investment in health and public services paid for by this new system of taxation won’t benefit the folk at the bottom of the income ladder.

You need to think this through.

They might not play golf at the posh clubs or attend private school but can you see how the changes there might help ?

[eFestivals]

Just now, Comfy Bean said:

Right so you now accept that Scotland’s poorest won’t be paying everything back in via council tax. Glad we sorted that out :-)

they won't be gaining anything by the Scottish tax changes either.

We're talking about how the income tax changes pan out, remember? :lol:

 

Just now, Comfy Bean said:

Can you explain how further investment in health and public services paid for by this new system of taxation won’t benefit the folk at the bottom of the income ladder.

It will.

At the expense of the money robbed from councils, where they'll be fewer services or higher payments.

Leaving an average of...? Almost no change on the ground. 

Robbing Peter to pay Paul is not changing the average of the house Peter and Paul live in.

[Comfy Bean]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Care to tell me what having that "power" would change about immigration to Scotland?

Currently, there's free access to Scotland available to all immigrants to the UK.

The only way Scotland could make itself more attractive to immigrants (via an immigration-specific power) would be by paying people to settle in come to Scotland.

Care to show me the people in Scotland who want to pay higher taxes so that money can be given to non-Scots, comfy?

Sturgeon's slogans are all about "for Scotland" not "for forriners".

You know fine well that Sturgeon and Salmond before her spoke regularly of the need for immigration to Scotland.

Not everyone would be the open arms type of course but the numbers in the Brexit vote are significant....not that it mattered of course :-(

I suppose this more welcoming SNP approach when compared to Ukip or the Tories is one way to encourage folk to come here.

I agree London is a more attractive proposition for most....plus the weather :-)

Specifically on the powers front, someone landing her with little or nothing remember has to travel south to be “ processed “ yuk!

The Snp want that changed as it would clearly be more human and probably doesn’t happen that often. Guess what the Tories said ?

[Comfy Bean]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

they won't be gaining anything by the Scottish tax changes either.

We're talking about how the income tax changes pan out, remember?

 

It will.

At the expense of the money robbed from councils, where they'll be fewer services or higher payments.

Leaving an average of...? Almost no change on the ground. 

Robbing Peter to pay Paul is not changing the average of the house Peter and Paul live in.

Is that the councils who can now generate extra revenue through House building and higher banding of the larger properties.

Some of the extra rev from the banding thing is ring fenced for education so will benefit all the kids....in theory !

You do realise that a new 19p rate has been introduced?

[eFestivals]

15 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

You know fine well that Sturgeon and Salmond before her spoke regularly of the need for immigration to Scotland.

as have May, Cameron, and every other English politician for England.

 

Quote

Not everyone would be the open arms type of course but the numbers in the Brexit vote are significant....not that it mattered of course :-(

attitudes to immigration are near-as-dammit identical to attitudes in England, as proven by countless surveys.

The difference in importance of effect of immigration is a consequence of the differences in immigration, and not more-accepting attitudes towards immigrants.

Meanwhile, nothing of the above is dealing with anything about how Scotland would attract more immigrants.

It can't attract the immigrants it needs now with a full-open door to all of Europe. I'm asking you what differences immigration powers could make to immigration to scotland (without need of a wall to stop them heading south).

 

Quote

I suppose this more welcoming SNP approach when compared to Ukip or the Tories is one way to encourage folk to come here.

that exists already (supposedly) and has done for at least 10 years ... yet it's not working, very clearly.

 

Quote

Specifically on the powers front, someone landing her with little or nothing remember has to travel south to be “ processed “ yuk!

what? That's just gobbledegook.

There's no immigration forms available in Scotland? You must have a shit govt.

 

Quote

The Snp want that changed as it would clearly be more human and probably doesn’t happen that often. Guess what the Tories said ?

Want what changed, to what effect?

And how would they be stopped heading south, so no new wall is needed if those powers were granted?

Edited December 17, 2017 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

17 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

You know fine well that Sturgeon and Salmond before her spoke regularly of the need for immigration to Scotland

I know fine well, too, that someone called Alex claimed immigration levels were already about sufficient. Are you calling him a liar now? are you saying Salmond lied his arse off during the indy ref?

You must be. :lol:

 

[eFestivals]

20 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

s that the councils who can now generate extra revenue through House building

Scottish councils are now private property developers?

There's no extra revenues thru house building.

 

Quote

and higher banding of the larger properties.

which already exist and are nothing new in this budget.

You can't claim this is a great budget because 2 years ago was a great budget. That would be insane.

 

Quote

Some of the extra rev from the banding thing is ring fenced for education so will benefit all the kids....in theory !

and other services deteriorate at the expense of that.

 

Quote

You do realise that a new 19p rate has been introduced?

yes, and i also know it raises almost-nothing extra in income taxes from the Scots you claim are happy to pay extra income taxes.

And i also know Scottish councils are having a cut in funding - which is *really* where extra Holyrood funds are coming from - and raising council tax to cover it which impacts back onto the poorest income tax payers to leave them almost no better off.

Edited December 17, 2017 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I know fine well, too, that someone called Alex claimed immigration levels were already about sufficient. Are you calling him a liar now? are you saying Salmond lied his arse off during the indy ref?

You must be.

 

I stand by what I’ve said. To my ears, the tone and words coming from Salmond and Sturgeon were clearly different from Nige and the Tories. Let’s agree to disagree. You’ll only end up denying that the 62% thing is a thing :-)

The tone and words and now actions on tax is now also clearly different. Baby steps.....

Apols for my part In derailing the thread folks.

[eFestivals]

Just now, Comfy Bean said:

I stand by what I’ve said. To my ears, the tone and words coming from Salmond and Sturgeon were clearly different from Nige and the Tories. Let’s agree to disagree. You’ll only end up denying that the 62% thing is a thing :-)

Nige - that bloke that england has refused to elect 9 TIMES? :rolleyes:

The tories? Where have they said they said they're against immigration? The tories are saying the same as Corbyn about it.

Meanwhile the immigrants reject those wonderful "welcoming words" as proven by...? Immigrants! They're worthless, very clearly!

 

Just now, Comfy Bean said:

The tone and words and now actions on tax is now also clearly different. Baby steps.....

Oh look, a squirrel.

I asked you to tell me what immigration powers for Scotland could be introduced which wouldn't require a wall to stop them heading south.

Do you have an answer, or just guff?

 

Just now, Comfy Bean said:

Apols for my part In derailing the thread folks.

immigration is no derailing.

So you can carry on and provide the answer to your claim, that you now seem shy of providing.