Brexit Schmexit

[feral chile]

4 minutes ago, lost said:

No it happened before.. He developed his morals when the money was already sitting in his bank account.

God that's so depressing

 

[eFestivals]

37 minutes ago, feral chile said:

boycotted maybe

It'd be boycotted by those who object, and would make no difference to those who don't.

 

37 minutes ago, feral chile said:

wasn't there a campaign to pressure papers to behave? cant remember the details but involving advertising/other companies I think.

 I know it was something that hit them in their wallet.

thing is, that's ultimately a "don't let papers print stuff i don't like" protest, and ignores the fact that the paper is popular in the first place.

'The left' always see demons, which if-only they could be defeated would lead to a glorious new dawn. It's bollocks.

[feral chile]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

It'd be boycotted by those who object, and would make no difference to those who don't.

 

thing is, that's ultimately a "don't let papers print stuff i don't like" protest, and ignores the fact that the paper is popular in the first place.

'The left' always see demons, which if-only they could be defeated would lead to a glorious new dawn. It's bollocks.

yeah, realised boycotting only works if their own readership gets pissed off with them

 

[eFestivals]

39 minutes ago, feral chile said:

yeah, realised boycotting only works if their own readership gets pissed off with them

essentially, there's already a boycott.

I'd guess none of here ever buy it, precisely because it is what it is. That's a boycott.

And those who buy it now probably don't have a problem with it, which is why they buy it.

[pink_triangle]

1 hour ago, feral chile said:

boycotted maybe

wasn't there a campaign to pressure papers to behave? cant remember the details but involving advertising/other companies I think.

 I know it was something that hit them in their wallet.

The mirror accused gove of being a traitor, should they be boycotted as well? Many of us do already boycott papers we don't like. I'm comfortable with freedom of speech (within the law) and people challenging things they don't agree with and making a choice to avoid should they choose. Banning people who disagree with you is rarely the best option.

[zahidf]

4 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

The mirror accused gove of being a traitor, should they be boycotted as well? Many of us do already boycott papers we don't like. I'm comfortable with freedom of speech (within the law) and people challenging things they don't agree with and making a choice to avoid should they choose. Banning people who disagree with you is rarely the best option.

True. However, germany banning nazis was good for a while (before this year!)

[eFestivals]

one third of Labour voters think Labour are "completely against brexit".
(and people reckon the kippers are thick.  )

While another third think they're totally for it.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/27/labour-voters-could-abandon-party-over-brexit-stance-poll-finds

Meanwhile, today Jez has again said "no 2nd referendum".

 

[feral chile]

5 hours ago, eFestivals said:

one third of Labour voters think Labour are "completely against brexit".
(and people reckon the kippers are thick.  )

While another third think they're totally for it.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/27/labour-voters-could-abandon-party-over-brexit-stance-poll-finds

Meanwhile, today Jez has again said "no 2nd referendum".

 

Yes, I saw that. I can see why they're being so cagey, either way they risk losing over 30% of their support.

[zahidf]

ok

 

do you think LEAVE voters are over 50% or under 50% racist?

[eFestivals]

12 hours ago, zahidf said:

ok

 

do you think LEAVE voters are over 50% or under 50% racist?

are you saying that there's huge numbers of racists voting Labour...?

As for racist, we're all racist, so how do you measure it fairly, without setting the line of 'what is racism?' to prove your own point?

[feral chile]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/02/owen-smith-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leadership?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

What do people make of this? I'm bemused by it. and what's the sideswipe at Eagle at the end of it all about?

She doesn't really say what she's changed her mind about. or why, at least.

I think she makes a good point that corbyn could have made a good argument for Remain, if he was a hypocrite.

So I have mixed feelings about that.

 

Edited January 3, 2018 by feral chile

[lost]

8 minutes ago, feral chile said:

She doesn't really say what she's changed her mind about. or why, at least.

Same thing happened with Owen Jones and Polly Toynbee. They basically worked out their career in left wing journalism was finished if they didn't beg for forgiveness and praise dear leader

Edited January 3, 2018 by lost

[eFestivals]

16 minutes ago, lost said:

Same thing happened with Owen Jones and Polly Toynbee. They basically worked out their career in left wing journalism was finished if they didn't beg for forgiveness and praise dear leader

I gave up reading Toynbee decades ago, but do enjoy reading Jones - tho more for a laugh than anything else. There probably isn't a subject he hasn't u-turned on at some point (and u-turned again, quite often - as with Corbyn). And some of his stuff is very lightweight and partisan, like yesterday's about trains.

But at least he's normally honest enough to admit his mistakes, rather than pretend they didn't happen at all. 

[lost]

Jones best performance was on Sky news recently where he was invited on to a debate regarding the economic problems in Venezuela and all he kept saying was "yeah but what about the tory arms deal with Saudi Arabia" I've never seen a tv guest try to change the entire subject of a news segment before because he didn't like it 

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, lost said:

Jones best performance was on Sky news recently where he was invited on to a debate regarding the economic problems in Venezuela and all he kept saying was "yeah but what about the tory arms deal with Saudi Arabia" I've never seen a tv guest try to change the entire subject of a news segment before because he didn't like it 

Venezuela is one of the things he's been prepared to admit he got wrong. 

Which is more than jez has been prepared to do.

[feral chile]

so why the snidey comment about Eagle? is she out of favour now?

[eFestivals]

12 minutes ago, feral chile said:

so why the snidey comment about Eagle? is she out of favour now?

she's no more out of favour now (as far as i'm aware, anyway) than she was at the time that writer was backing Smith over Corbyn.

I didn't take that comment as particularly snidey, it can mean many things. Eagle was very briefly in the contest before withdrawing, so backing Eagle would have been a worse choice than backing Smith. That's simple fact within that contest, nothing snidey.

Back to brexit, it's quite sadly-amusing that Corbyn used to slag Eagle off for wanting Labour to appeal to brexiters, and today it's him advocating a more-brexit line than Eagle ever did.

[feral chile]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

she's no more out of favour now (as far as i'm aware, anyway) than she was at the time that writer was backing Smith over Corbyn.

I didn't take that comment as particularly snidey, it can mean many things. Eagle was very briefly in the contest before withdrawing, so backing Eagle would have been a worse choice than backing Smith. That's simple fact within that contest, nothing snidey.

Back to brexit, it's quite sadly-amusing that Corbyn used to slag Eagle off for wanting Labour to appeal to brexiters, and today it's him advocating a more-brexit line than Eagle ever did.

I'm conflicted about this. I can see why her couldn't passionately argue for remain, he'd have lost all credibility and probably didn't want to back something he was lukewarm about. 

he could have really influenced the referendum result though, if he was a remainer.

I'm probably as conflicted as he is

 

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, feral chile said:

I'm conflicted about this. I can see why her couldn't passionately argue for remain, he'd have lost all credibility and probably didn't want to back something he was lukewarm about. 

he could have really influenced the referendum result though, if he was a remainer.

I'm probably as conflicted as he is

Nope, i don't think he'd have lost credibility for it, if he made clear he has issues with aspects but was 100% in support of remaining.

Instead, he's lost credibility because plenty know he only put in half-hearted efforts. It was clear by how much vigorously he campaigned in the GE. To those people - me included - he's sold out the class he's supposedly representing for his own (hoped-for) political benefit.

[lost]

I said at the time the majority on the remain side seemed to be conflicted or more bothered about something else. Leave seemed reasoned and spoke with a single message which is why they ended up winning. Corbyn was out and according to Labour, his office was sabotaging labour remain, the SNP were trying to argue European union trade block good british union trade block bad. We were left with a few decimated lib dems from the previous election and the visible tories who were already being blamed for the austerity policies.

Edited January 3, 2018 by lost

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, lost said:

Leave seemed reasoned and spoke with a single message which is why they ended up winning.

Hmmm, not sure about that. They used all and every angle, to make its appeal as broad as possible by making it everything to anyone (who might be tempted to vote leave). 

So it certainly wasn't a single message. A simple message for the simple, maybe.

(That's not saying all brexiters are simple, btw. It's a recognition that plenty of minds were made up either way before any campaigning.)

[lost]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Hmmm, not sure about that. They used all and every angle, to make its appeal as broad as possible by making it everything to anyone (who might be tempted to vote leave). 

So it certainly wasn't a single message. A simple message for the simple, maybe.

(That's not saying all brexiters are simple, btw. It's a recognition that plenty of minds were made up either way before any campaigning.)

My comments were mainly around the debates which I think had enough viewers to swing the results either way.

Boris and Stuart seemed united and presented a vision even though they were politically opposed. On remain Eagle attacked the Tory remainer for austerity and Sturgeon seemed hand tied for obvious reasons. 

[feral chile]

26 minutes ago, lost said:

I said at the time the majority on the remain side seemed to be conflicted or more bothered about something else. Leave seemed reasoned and spoke with a single message which is why they ended up winning. Corbyn was out and according to Labour, his office was sabotaging labour remain, the SNP were trying to argue European union trade block good british union trade block bad. We were left with a few decimated lib dems from the previous election and the visible tories who were already being blamed for the austerity policies.

Plaid said it was too soon for them to get themselves organised after the may elections

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35483522

Quote

 

In their letter, also signed by Northern Ireland deputy first minister Martin McGuinness, the three political leaders say it is vital that voters are properly informed about the issue at stake in the referendum and this could be compromised if the campaign overlaps with that for elections to the Scottish Parliament, Welsh Assembly and Stormont Parliament on 5 May.

"We believe that holding a referendum as early as June will mean that a significant part of the referendum campaign will necessarily run in parallel with those elections and risks confusing issues at a moment when clarity is required," they write.

Opposition in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to an early referendum has been building in recent weeks.

There is concern that a date just weeks after the 5 May election would mean the campaigns become confused or there wouldn't be time to properly consider the European issue.

It is interesting to note the Labour Welsh First Minister Carwyn Jones has signed this letter.

Nationally his party favours a June vote - Alan Johnson, the leader of the Labour In campaign said yesterday his party would not stand in the way of a 23 June referendum. And last night, Scottish Labour's leader Kezia Dugdale told BBC Scotland she was happy for the vote to be held then.

But expect continued pressure from devolved governments and administrations on this issue. Even if David Cameron can persuade other European leaders of his renegotiation plans, it's possible he will face significant opposition domestically on the date.

"Furthermore, it will be virtually impossible for the political parties in our respective territories to plan effectively for, and where appropriate work together on, the referendum campaign while our own elections are in progress.

"We believe that the European Referendum is of vital importance to the future of the whole United Kingdom and the debate leading up to it should, therefore, be free of other campaigning distraction."

 

 

Edited January 3, 2018 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, feral chile said:

Plaid said it was too soon for them to get themselves organised after the may elections

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35483522

She was just pissed off that her five yearly chance to get on TV a lot in Wales was being marginalised.

[feral chile]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

She was just pissed off that her five yearly chance to get on TV a lot in Wales was being marginalised.

it also occurred to me as I was reading it that they chose where to focus their efforts.