Brexit Schmexit

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, zahidf said:

id say theyve suceeded in putting the govt in a tough spot. i dont see a qay out for May other than caving in on a customs union point

which then only exposes how poor Corbyn's suggested position is. May's already tried it and failed, not because she's May, but because the EU said 'no'.

Do you think being exposed for a shit position would improve Corbyn's electability?

[zahidf]

17 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

which then only exposes how poor Corbyn's suggested position is. May's already tried it and failed, not because she's May, but because the EU said 'no'.

Do you think being exposed for a shit position would improve Corbyn's electability?

Is may going to say 'THE EU WONT LESS US'?  she cant. she has to find another excuse!

 

Jez just has to say the EU wont offer it because the Tories are useless and he would do better

Edited February 26, 2018 by zahidf

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Is may going to say 'THE EU WONT LESS US'?  she cant. she has to find another excuse!

Yeah, and Jez will ride into no.10 on a unicorn.

Fuck's sake. 

You don't think a "nasty EU" narrative won't sell? Where have you been?

And if it's coming from the gob of the EU - and it will be - people will know that it's Jez asking for the impossible and not May.

 

6 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Jez just has to say the EU wont offer it because the Tories are useless and he would do better

And then he gets into no.10 and is proven a liar.

Go on, tell me how that's better, ensuring Labour's future non-electability.

[zahidf]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Yeah, and Jez will ride into no.10 on a unicorn.

Fuck's sake. 

You don't think a "nasty EU" narrative won't sell? Where have you been?

And if it's coming from the gob of the EU - and it will be - people will know that it's Jez asking for the impossible and not May.

 

And then he gets into no.10 and is proven a liar.

Go on, tell me how that's better, ensuring Labour's future non-electability.

i assume once he is in, they revoke art 50, and thats the end of that!

But anyway, all those things u say about jezs electability apply to the Tories as well. He just has to seem more competent and less divided than them, which he is managing

and the govt arent going for a nasty eu narrative. they are saying no customs union is there choice

Edited February 26, 2018 by zahidf

[lost]

10 minutes ago, zahidf said:

i assume once he is in, they revoke art 50, and thats the end of that!

Words fail me seriously:

Jeremy Corbyn voted for Britain to leave the European Economic Community (EEC) in the 1975 European referendum.

Jeremy Corbyn opposed the creation of the European Union (EU) under the Maastricht Treaty – speaking and voting against it in Parliament in 1993. During the 2016 referendum campaign, Left Leave highlighted repeated speeches he made in Parliament opposing Europe during 1993.

Jeremy Corbyn voted against the Lisbon Treaty on more than one occasion in Parliament in 2008.

In 2010, Jeremy Corbyn voted against the creation of the European Union’s diplomatic service.

Jeremy Corbyn voted for a referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU in 2011 (breaking the Labour whip to do so).

In 2011 Jeremy Corbyn also opposed the creation of the EU’s European Stability Mechanism. Only 26 other MPs joined him in voting against, and in their number are the likes of right-wing Euro-sceptics such as Peter Bone, Douglas Carswell, Bill Cash, Ian Paisley Junior and John Redwood.

Jeremy Corbyn opposed Britain’s participation in the EU’s Banking Authority in 2012.

In 2016 his long-time left-wing ally Tariq Ali said that he was sure that if Corbyn was not Labour leader he would be campaigning for Britain to leave the EU, whilst his brother Piers Corbyn also said that Jeremy Corbyn was privately opposed to Britain’s membership of the European Union.

Jeremy Corbyn went on holiday during the 2016 referendum campaign and his office staff consistently undermined the Remain campaign. He refused to attend a key Remain campaign launch and also attacked government ministers for publicising the Remain case, saying they should also have promoted arguments in favour of Leave vote. The Director of the Remain campaign, himself a Labour member and candidate, said, “Rather than making a clear and passionate Labour case for EU membership, Corbyn took a week’s holiday in the middle of the campaign and removed pro-EU lines from his speeches”. During the referendum campaign, Leave.EU highlighted Corbyn’s attacks on Europe made in 1996.

The day after the European referendum in 2016, Jeremy Corbyn called for the immediate invocation of Article 50 – the two year notice to leave the EU – much quicker than even Theresa May wanted.

In December 2016, Jeremy Corbyn voted in Parliament in favour of the UK leaving the EU and for the process to start no latter than 31 March 2017.

Jeremy Corbyn three times voted in February 2017 in favour of the Prime Minister starting the process of leaving the European Union.

In the summer of 2017, Jeremy Corbyn opposed Britain remaining in the Single Market. He even sacked from his team Labour MPs who voted in favour of membership of the Single Market.

As Frank field said, he's created a position from which he has no chance of winning so he can turn around to the labour moderates and say well at least I tried.

Edited February 26, 2018 by lost

[eFestivals]

27 minutes ago, zahidf said:

But anyway, all those things u say about jezs electability apply to the Tories as well.

No.

The tories accept they can't have their cake and eat it. It's the very reason May has shifted position.

 

27 minutes ago, zahidf said:

He just has to seem more competent and less divided than them, which he is managing

only for the suckers who are sucking it all up. Plenty of the rest know he's a fraud, and don't trust him for it.

You've been strangely quiet with twitter posts today. Might that be because they're far from being in Jez's favour?

 

27 minutes ago, zahidf said:

and the govt arent going for a nasty eu narrative. they are saying no customs union is there choice

They're saying it's their choice against the facts of reality. 

Which is better than prending reality doesn't exist. 

and it's not the govt who will be playing the 'nasty EU' narrative if May is forced to negotiate Corbyn's terms, it will start from the gob of the EU and run all by itself - and it's Corbyn who will be damaged by it, not May.

[pink_triangle]

46 minutes ago, zahidf said:

i assume once he is in, they revoke art 50, and thats the end of that!

But anyway, all those things u say about jezs electability apply to the Tories as well. He just has to seem more competent and less divided than them, which he is managing

and the govt arent going for a nasty eu narrative. they are saying no customs union is there choice

I would not support revoking article 50 without a referendum. Also nothing about Corbyns past suggest he would revoke article 50. Unless his supporters start putting pressure on him to follow their wishes, he can effectively do as he wants.

The position I would like labour to take would be to either campaign for another referendum or a referendum to accept/reject the Brexit deal agreed. I would then like Corbyn to be told the expectation was that he will campaign properly to remain in the EU and any holidays he had planned during the campaign would have to be postponed. I accept it would be a difficult fight, but for the good of the country I feel it’s one labour must fight.

[eFestivals]

10 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I would not support revoking article 50 without a referendum.

me neither. None of get what we want without firstly having democracy. 

And people can do the "parliament is sovereign" thing as their get out all they want, but that's choosing to ignore that parliament passed sovereignty on this to 'the people' and promised to abide by the result - and people like Jeremy voted for that.

The first referendum might have been a fuck-up, but its a fuck-up that can only be undone by another referendum.

After that, i'm happy for a discussion on whether we should allow referendums and if so, on what different terms - but that can't be used to ignore what's already happened.

[LJS]

5 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Me, I reckon the tories will now be seriously considering letting Jez have no.10 as well as the shitty-stick called brexit.

Is this Neil preparing his get out clause in case Corbin achieves what he has repeatedly maintained is impossible, i.e. win an election?

 

[LJS]

1 hour ago, lost said:

Words fail me seriously:

Jeremy Corbyn voted for Britain to leave the European Economic Community (EEC) in the 1975 European referendum.

Jeremy Corbyn opposed the creation of the European Union (EU) under the Maastricht Treaty – speaking and voting against it in Parliament in 1993. During the 2016 referendum campaign, Left Leave highlighted repeated speeches he made in Parliament opposing Europe during 1993.

Jeremy Corbyn voted against the Lisbon Treaty on more than one occasion in Parliament in 2008.

In 2010, Jeremy Corbyn voted against the creation of the European Union’s diplomatic service.

Jeremy Corbyn voted for a referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU in 2011 (breaking the Labour whip to do so).

In 2011 Jeremy Corbyn also opposed the creation of the EU’s European Stability Mechanism. Only 26 other MPs joined him in voting against, and in their number are the likes of right-wing Euro-sceptics such as Peter Bone, Douglas Carswell, Bill Cash, Ian Paisley Junior and John Redwood.

Jeremy Corbyn opposed Britain’s participation in the EU’s Banking Authority in 2012.

In 2016 his long-time left-wing ally Tariq Ali said that he was sure that if Corbyn was not Labour leader he would be campaigning for Britain to leave the EU, whilst his brother Piers Corbyn also said that Jeremy Corbyn was privately opposed to Britain’s membership of the European Union.

Jeremy Corbyn went on holiday during the 2016 referendum campaign and his office staff consistently undermined the Remain campaign. He refused to attend a key Remain campaign launch and also attacked government ministers for publicising the Remain case, saying they should also have promoted arguments in favour of Leave vote. The Director of the Remain campaign, himself a Labour member and candidate, said, “Rather than making a clear and passionate Labour case for EU membership, Corbyn took a week’s holiday in the middle of the campaign and removed pro-EU lines from his speeches”. During the referendum campaign, Leave.EU highlighted Corbyn’s attacks on Europe made in 1996.

The day after the European referendum in 2016, Jeremy Corbyn called for the immediate invocation of Article 50 – the two year notice to leave the EU – much quicker than even Theresa May wanted.

In December 2016, Jeremy Corbyn voted in Parliament in favour of the UK leaving the EU and for the process to start no latter than 31 March 2017.

Jeremy Corbyn three times voted in February 2017 in favour of the Prime Minister starting the process of leaving the European Union.

In the summer of 2017, Jeremy Corbyn opposed Britain remaining in the Single Market. He even sacked from his team Labour MPs who voted in favour of membership of the Single Market.

As Frank field said, he's created a position from which he has no chance of winning so he can turn around to the labour moderates and say well at least I tried.

It's good manners to link to your source when posting quotations.

[pink_triangle]

LJS out of interest what is the SNP opinion about another referendum or a referendum to accept the terms of the Brexit deal? Does the fact they one day want another Indy referendum influence this?

[zahidf]

 

[LJS]

2 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

LJS out of interest what is the SNP opinion about another referendum or a referendum to accept the terms of the Brexit deal? Does the fact they one day want another Indy referendum influence this?

I'm not aware of them having a firm position. But if one was seriously proposed, it's hard to see how they could oppose it.

[zahidf]

3 hours ago, LJS said:

Is this Neil preparing his get out clause in case Corbin achieves what he has repeatedly maintained is impossible, i.e. win an election?

 

Despite what Neil says, i think the speech was astute today. The standard gave it a good write up, reaction seems positive on the twitter sphere, and it seems to be getting a good response in Europe. Politically, its put the Tories in a bit of bother i think

[pink_triangle]

17 minutes ago, LJS said:

I'm not aware of them having a firm position. But if one was seriously proposed, it's hard to see how they could oppose it.

I hope they would, but it would make it more difficult to then say the same principle shouldn't apply if there was ever a Scottish Indy vote.

[pink_triangle]

19 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Despite what Neil says, i think the speech was astute today. The standard gave it a good write up, reaction seems positive on the twitter sphere, and it seems to be getting a good response in Europe. Politically, its put the Tories in a bit of bother i think

To me it's only a positive if it is the first step on a journey to another referendum, I believe that is the only way Brexit can be stopped. If it just stays where it is, I think it's rejected by the EU and we end up with hard Brexit.

[eFestivals]

11 hours ago, LJS said:

Is this Neil preparing his get out clause in case Corbin achieves what he has repeatedly maintained is impossible, i.e. win an election?

 

You just can't help making it up, can you? :lol:

As you've missed it, I've said countless times since June that he might win, while pointing out that Jez's method is to hope the tories are more shit than he is - because he's making no effort to win the votes of those who didn't vote for him back then.

Jez reckoned he'd be PM by xmas just gone. He's more wrong than me.

Just before xmas - when recognising he'd called it wrong - Jez then said he'd be PM by the end of this year. It's most likely he's wrong again, even if there's an election to give him a chance of that, because he's still not gaining that extra support he needs (and yesterday he could well have shreaded 5-20% of the vote he got in June, tho we'll have to wait for new polls to see if that's happened).

Meanwhile you've been supporting worse than Brexit. Brexit bad, brexit on steroids good?  Meanwhile you've been supporting the illogical. Single market good, single market bad. Etc, etc, etc.

[eFestivals]

11 hours ago, LJS said:

It's good manners to link to your source when posting quotations.

OMFG.

Hansard documented stuff that anyone with half a brain already knows, and you're demanding sources.

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, LJS said:

I'm not aware of them having a firm position. But if one was seriously proposed, it's hard to see how they could oppose it.

really? The SNP would support "the people" deciding a big issue, when the SNP didn't support 'the people' deciding a big issue?

(... until 'the people' in a self-selected area voted the way that caused the greatest division, and since then the SNP can't shut up about how 'the people' voted when the SNP didn't want them to vote?)

Edited February 27, 2018 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, zahidf said:

Despite what Neil says, i think the speech was astute today. The standard gave it a good write up, reaction seems positive on the twitter sphere, and it seems to be getting a good response in Europe. Politically, its put the Tories in a bit of bother i think

it's the very first time Jez has altered his "I'm hoping the tories are even more shit than me" strategy.

It's to be applauded.

But it's still a turd.

[zahidf]

44 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

You just can't help making it up, can you?

As you've missed it, I've said countless times since June that he might win, while pointing out that Jez's method is to hope the tories are more shit than he is - because he's making no effort to win the votes of those who didn't vote for him back then.

Jez reckoned he'd be PM by xmas just gone. He's more wrong than me.

Just before xmas - when recognising he'd called it wrong - Jez then said he'd be PM by the end of this year. It's most likely he's wrong again, even if there's an election to give him a chance of that, because he's still not gaining that extra support he needs (and yesterday he could well have shreaded 5-20% of the vote he got in June, tho we'll have to wait for new polls to see if that's happened).

Meanwhile you've been supporting worse than Brexit. Brexit bad, brexit on steroids good?  Meanwhile you've been supporting the illogical. Single market good, single market bad. Etc, etc, etc.

And what about the 25% or so Tory remain voters? Theyll stick with their party if they continue on the hard brexit stance and wont support labours softer stance?

 

There were 2.6 million Labour leave voters. There were 3.2 million Tory Remain voters

Edited February 27, 2018 by zahidf

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, zahidf said:

And what about the 25% or so Tory remain voters? Theyll stick with their party if they continue on the hard brexit stance and wont support labours softer stance?

Labour might attract some remain tories, tho i suspect the number will be smaller than the leavers that Labour's clear stance is likely to repel.

If it was merely about remain/leave tied tightly to Labour/tory, Jez wouldn't have got the share of the vote he did back in June - where he was quite happy to pick-up the votes of over half the kippers. Did they vote for him because he was anti-brexit? I doubt it very much.

But let's see some new polls, to see what they reveal.

[eFestivals]

11 minutes ago, zahidf said:

And what about the 25% or so Tory remain voters? Theyll stick with their party if they continue on the hard brexit stance and wont support labours softer stance?

PS: if remain/leave decided those people's votes, they'd have already voted something different to tory back in June.

BTW, you do realise that May's "Canada plus-plus" is about the same as Corbyn's "customs union minus-minus", don't you?

(and that "customs union minus-minus" cannot be the Ireland no-border answer.)

[zahidf]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

PS: if remain/leave decided those people's votes, they'd have already voted something different to tory back in June.

BTW, you do realise that May's "Canada plus-plus" is about the same as Corbyn's "customs union minus-minus", don't you?

(and that "customs union minus-minus" cannot be the Ireland no-border answer.)

If labour stance is just 'minus minus' then its not enough. its a good first step.

 

The prsssures on jez in labour is for a more remain direction, whilst the Tories (With the 70 or so MPS in Moggs hard brexit group) are for a super hard brexit.

On the other point, if a parties brexot stance doesnt matter THAT much too voters, then i dont see how Jezs speech will lose them 5-20 (????) % of the vote without also getting Tory remain support

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, zahidf said:

And what about the 25% or so Tory remain voters? Theyll stick with their party if they continue on the hard brexit stance and wont support labours softer stance?

 

There were 2.6 million Labour leave voters. There were 3.2 million Tory Remain voters

Most Tory's that I know who voted to remain would rather have hard Brexit than Corbyn as PM (it's been discussed). I think you underestimate the  dislike, distrust and in some cases hatred they have of the man.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Ommadawn