Brexit Schmexit

[eFestivals]

25 minutes ago, zahidf said:

If labour stance is just 'minus minus' then its not enough. its a good first step.

an unprincipled playing-politics step.

Just in case you've missed that part, and want to bang on about Corbyn's unshakable principles ... tho by him supporting the EU, he's dumped them anyway.

 

25 minutes ago, zahidf said:

The prsssures on jez in labour is for a more remain direction, whilst the Tories (With the 70 or so MPS in Moggs hard brexit group) are for a super hard brexit.

no they're not. 

(when you have to lie about the opposition, how poor is the side you're having to use those lies for?? )

And there's about the same number of hard brexiters amongst Labour MPs. There's even one called Jez.

 

25 minutes ago, zahidf said:

On the other point, if a parties brexot stance doesnt matter THAT much too voters, then i dont see how Jezs speech will lose them 5-20 (????) % of the vote without also getting Tory remain support

Jez got extra votes in June by attracting kippers. The tories got their normal voters.

There's only one set on one side who have big motivation to now change.

[zahidf]

Just now, eFestivals said:

an unprincipled playing-politics step.

Just in case you've missed that part, and want to bang on about Corbyn's unshakable principles ... tho by him supporting the EU, he's dumped them anyway.

 

no they're not. 

(when you have to lie about the opposition, how poor is the side you're having to use those lies for?? )

And there's about the same number of hard brexiters amongst Labour MPs. There's even one called Jez.

 

Jez got extra votes in June by attracting kippers. The tories got their normal voters.

There's only one set on one side who have big motivation to now change.

Labour has around 8-10 hard brexiters. Tories have around 70+. They dont have the same!

Did he attract the kippers by his Brexit stance or his other policies? 

Is staying out the customs union a red line principle now?

[zahidf]

50 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

(and that "customs union minus-minus" cannot be the Ireland no-border answer.)

Are you saying the Tories have a better handle on the Irish border issue?

I know arsenal took their cup defeat badly but a hard border on the holloway road seems excessive

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Labour has around 8-10 hard brexiters.

Ideologically, yes. And they include Jez and McD, who've voted with the tory brexit nutters constantly.

But there's also all of those MPs - most Labour MPs - who have a leave-voting constituency, and are more concerned with their own electability than a principled line.
(just in case you want to slag those, I'll remind you Jez is working the same unprincipled thjo in the opposite direction).

There's not many of those who will feel comfortable supporting Labour's new line - because it's weak on immigration, amongst other things.

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Are you saying the Tories have a better handle on the Irish border issue?

no, i'm pointing out that Jez bullshitted yesterday when he said his "a" CU plan addressed it.

[zahidf]

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Ideologically, yes. And they include Jez and McD, who've voted with the tory brexit nutters constantly.

But there's also all of those MPs - most Labour MPs - who have a leave-voting constituency, and are more concerned with their own electability than a principled line.
(just in case you want to slag those, I'll remind you Jez is working the same unprincipled thjo in the opposite direction).

There's not many of those who will feel comfortable supporting Labour's new line - because it's weak on immigration, amongst other things.

The 8-10 include those MPS with LEAVE voting constituencies who vote on that basis. (if going by the votes on the topic in parliament). 

Ive said 70 to include Moggs hard brexit group, but if your moving away from ideology, they are probably double that in the Tories ranks doing it for practical reasons.

 

My point is the Tories clearly have a LOT more hard brexit support than Labour

[pink_triangle]

58 minutes ago, zahidf said:

The prsssures on jez in labour is for a more remain direction, 

 

Im not convinced Corbyn is under any pressure from labour members, momentum has pretty much said him staying as leader is the most important thing.

I would very much like labour members to put him under pressure, forget policies that would be rejected by the EU and result in hard brexit. Lets support a referendum on the final deal, this would have good support among labour membership.

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, zahidf said:

The 8-10 include those MPS with LEAVE voting constituencies who vote on that basis. (if going by the votes on the topic in parliament). 

that was how the voted when Labour had a vague position, that they could reconcile with their constituency.

It doesn't mean that stays the same when Labour move position, as they have.

 

5 minutes ago, zahidf said:

My point is the Tories clearly have a LOT more hard brexit support than Labour

but not with their leader.

Which means when the policies of both parties are about equal as they are (tho everyone knows Labour's is a moving fudge, you even think it's a deliberate deception and it's really 'stay in the EU'!), which of the two is more trustworthy?

 

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Im not convinced Corbyn is under any pressure from labour members, momentum has pretty much said him staying as leader is the most important thing.

There was recently a "give Jez some anti-brexit hassle" campaign from members.It got 18,000 emails sent.

When momentum claims to be able to motivate 500k (and momentum said "don't send those emails, it's a blairite plot to unseat Jez" ).

[eFestivals]

Good article, particularly thought this part nailed it...

Corbyn’s view is that, quite aside from a democratic duty to honour the referendum result, Brexit is a sensible, indeed desirable goal, just as long as it is handled by a party of the left. This has long been implicit in the Labour leader’s actions. Its explicit declaration will still disappoint anyone harbouring hopes that the opposition is engaged in some cunning guerrilla sabotage, sniping tactically at the Tories and holding back from a full-throated remain cry only because public opinion is unready to hear it. Corbyn’s cards have come away from his chest, and he’s holding a flush of leave.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/26/jeremy-corbyn-brexit-theresa-may

[zahidf]

What could go wrong?

 

https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/968534252055859201?s=19

 

Edited February 27, 2018 by zahidf

[zahidf]

Im sure this is Jezs fault somehow as well

 

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, zahidf said:

What could go wrong?

people could start submitting to the terrorists?

There's more than one "go wrong" around this issue.

[zahidf]

32 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

people could start submitting to the terrorists?

There's more than one "go wrong" around this issue.

Nothing is the Tories fault. its the fault of the irish, eu or jez. preferably all of them

[zahidf]

Hard to diaagree with this

 

[eFestivals]

10 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Nothing is the Tories fault. its the fault of the irish, eu or jez. preferably all of them

if it kicks off in NI, it won't be the tories planting the bombs. :rolleyes:

Are the tories now also responsible for islamic terrorism? Does it mean any terrorist act will be Labour's fault if/when they're in govt?

Somewhen, people have to be held responsible for what they do. If it's always someone else's fault, no one can be held responsible for anything.

[zahidf]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

if it kicks off in NI, it won't be the tories planting the bombs.

Are the tories now also responsible for islamic terrorism? Does it mean any terrorist act will be Labour's fault if/when they're in govt?

Somewhen, people have to be held responsible for what they do. If it's always someone else's fault, no one can be held responsible for anything.

The tories are the ones threathening the good friday agreement for no good reason.

[eFestivals]

8 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Hard to diaagree with this

it's selective.

It wasn't only the UK that signed a document, the EU did too.

If the UK to be be literally held to what it has signed, then so does the EU - which has agreed to implement a no-border arrangement without SM or CU and without a border between the GB & NI.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, zahidf said:

The tories are the ones threathening the good friday agreement for no good reason.

No they're not.

They're only threatening it if they're saying "we want a border". And I refer you to my post above, where the EU signed up to stuff no differently to the tories.

As for "no good reason", i presume you're against another general election so the tories rule forever as you think UK votes count for fuck all. 

[zahidf]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

No they're not.

They're only threatening it if they're saying "we want a border". And I refer you to my post above, where the EU signed up to stuff no differently to the tories.

As for "no good reason", i presume you're against another general election so the tories rule forever as you think UK votes count for fuck all. 

was imposing a hard border and getting out of the good friday agreement an option in the referendum or party manifestos? must have missed that.

 

I believe the tories said it was would be easy and it would never happen. in fact, they said that yesteday morning!

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, zahidf said:

was imposing a hard border and getting out of the good friday agreement an option in the referendum or party manifestos? must have missed that.

Oh FFS.

Imposing a hard border wasn't ruled out by the EUref any more than it was ruled in.

And who is trying to get out of the GFA? The UK govt *AND* the EU have signed a doc that puts in place the principles that should ensure it doesn't happen - but that requires the EU to step outside of what Tusk/Barnier tend to say, because that's what they signed up to in the doc.

 

Quote

I believe the tories said it was would be easy and it would never happen. in fact, they said that yesteday morning!

and jez said he'd PM by (last) xmas.  

And Jez also said that his proposed CU would ensure no border - cos he clearly knows fuck all about what a CU is.

Why is the bullshit from just some politicians a crime against humanity?

I'm not giving the tories a free pass, i'm having the perspective you have none of.

Edited February 28, 2018 by eFestivals

[zahidf]

oof

 

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, zahidf said:

oof

when will Jez be doing that, too?

It's easy to criticise, it's harder to do, and Jez has a lifetime of doing nothing at all.

[zahidf]

9 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

when will Jez be doing that, too?

It's easy to criticise, it's harder to do, and Jez has a lifetime of doing nothing at all.

The role of the opposition is too crtiticise. 

[eFestivals]

37 minutes ago, zahidf said:

The role of the opposition is too crtiticise. 

no, it's to offer a better alternative. 

Cos if they don't have one, why would anyone want them in power instead?