Brexit Schmexit

[Comfy Bean]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

PS: it's not exactly smart to spend years calling the tories liars, and then complain you've been lied to.

You can only feel lied to if you accepted what they said as straight and honest. Did you? 

 

 

Apols, I see with a little help from LJS, you got there in the end 

"Scottish fishermen all over the news raging, claiming that they have been lied to by May and Davidson. Colour me surprised".

[Comfy Bean]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 

You can only feel lied to if you accepted what they said as straight and honest. 

 

 

Agreed.

The saddest things is, this time next year the fisher folks along with many others will probably vote to remain under the same Tory rule. 

Were you surprised that things like fishing, agriculture etc look like going under the bus ? I`m sure it came up on here before. 

Scottish Tory MP`s demanding a meeting today ( nothing will change ). I think Sturgeon may have called this quite some time back ( as did Salmon ).

[Comfy Bean]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 

But you (and Sturgeon) have got the best outcome, the outcome you've said you've wanted.

 

For the record Neil, Sturgeon campaigned very strongly for REMAIN.

She is pro-eu and told the fishermen this ( note the difference ). She actually is pro-eu, a bit like Ruth and a few others used to say they were 

In fairness. Deep down I suspect Ruth is pro-eu but she has her career to think of and is clearly following orders.

[eFestivals]

45 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

Hi Neil,

Perhaps you didn`t read this properly earlier 

I am not a fisherman and I did not vote for Brexit on the strength of promises from May / Davidson.

Sturgeon ( insert fish joke ) was very pro-remain so your response in attacking her looks silly. She campaigned strongly AGAINST Brexit but the fisherman chose to believe the Leave campaign.

As I said, Ruth and the Tory MP`s are frustrated and talking about "betrayal" by May and the Tories. You seem keen to defend and deflect onto Sturgeon. 

Sadly I`m far from surprised. Deflecting on to Sturgeon is atleast a refreshing change from defending the Tories by blaming everything on Corbyn or those on the left etc 

It`s all very well having a blue passport if you have no fish to catch. They had a Tory boy on the radio earlier talking about "our fish " and " our seas ". I didn`t know whether to laugh or cry.

 

I know all of that.

Just as I know that a sector wanting freedom from EU rules while the UK is getting the benefits of the EU isn't a starter.

I argued that before the vote - as did Sturgeon, and you - and we all called out the morons who said differently as the morons they were being. Today, I still call out morons on the exact same basis.

It's just that today there's more morons than there were before the vote, because some people who used to be smart have turned off their brains in favour of the selfish and self-serving me-ism.

What have you missed?

[eFestivals]

40 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

Agreed.

So Sturgeon has been thick enough to be believing the tories.

Or she's being duplicitous.

Take your pick.

 

Quote

The saddest things is, this time next year the fisher folks along with many others will probably vote to remain under the same Tory rule. 

Were you surprised that things like fishing, agriculture etc look like going under the bus ? I`m sure it came up on here before. 

A new deal is going to require the UK giving up some of what they might otherwise have, same as the old deal did.

The things the UK will give up will include many of the things the EU cherish the most, just as some of the things the EU will give up will be some of the things the UK cherishes the most.

If you think it's wrong for the UK to do that you need to revise your previous support for being an EU member.

Is that (by default) "under the bus"? Only if you're a fan of the Mogg view.

 

Quote

Scottish Tory MP`s demanding a meeting today ( nothing will change ). I think Sturgeon may have called this quite some time back ( as did Salmon ).

The only offence sturgeon and Salmond can take over this is if they are claiming the seas around Scotland as only-Scottish.

Which is, against the facts, idiot self-serving deliberately-divisive selfishness.

Because it won't only be Scotland which has to make compromises in order for there to be a deal with the EU, either as member or non-member.

Edited March 20, 2018 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

23 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

For the record Neil, Sturgeon campaigned very strongly for REMAIN.

Yep, on things she said were principles.

Which is shown as bollocks by her demand for special treatment for fishermen while we're under EU rules.

If she wants to keep her principles she could have trolled the tories for being liars - but instead she's decided to prove herself a liar.

 

23 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

She is pro-eu and told the fishermen this ( note the difference ). She actually is pro-eu, a bit like Ruth and a few others used to say they were 

Then why is she now demanding that they have what she'd previously told them they couldn't have? :lol:

 

23 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

In fairness. Deep down I suspect Ruth is pro-eu but she has her career to think of and is clearly following orders.

If Ruth or Sturgeon are pro-EU, why are they expecting special treatment from the EU for *just* the fishing industry? :rolleyes:

Anyone who understands what the EU are about knows that was never a starter.

[5co77ie]

Interesting that the BBC are leaving out all mention of the Brexit referendum fixing from their news stories on Cambridge Analytica and how they targeted people’s inner demons to influence their vote. I should make clear. I realise even if it comes to light that they used the psychographic profiling, it won’t halt Brexit, I’m not particularly bothered.

I am bothered about this kind of ‘marketing’ being legal in this country. Without the reference to participation in this country by CA in the news, it looks as though the British people were not being targeted. Do the BBC not run this aspect of the story because they’re complicit in running fake news and smear stories during elections?

Did Nix lie to the select committee last month about his and Banks’ involvement. Robert Mercer is linked to Farage and his finances. Banks said CA was too expensive for his Leave.eu campaign (but Mercer would have funded it perhaps?)

We now know Cambridge Analytica is an offshoot of Strategic Communications Laboratories, now the SCL Group - who create ‘Fake News’ as a marketing tool in political campaigns.

The fact I feel is the Select Committee asked Nix the wrong questions last month. Pressing Nix on the use of bots (not an algorithm and coders) and so he correctly answered they weren't using bots - repeatedly. Everything Nix denied could be therefore be true if the questions han't been so bot nuanced.

Nix only a few weeks ago lied to the select committee when he said CA were not data miners. What else did he lie about?


 

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, 5co77ie said:

I realise even if it comes to light that they used the psychographic profiling, it won’t halt Brexit

Yup - because no one is going to admit to having been swayed by anything like this.

Mind you, not everyone has been. It's only really the people who started out supporting remain who changed to leave who might have been influenced.

12 minutes ago, 5co77ie said:

I am bothered about this kind of ‘marketing’ being legal in this country.

That's ultimately all advertising - the thing you and me make our crusts by

Because it's all designed to act on the psychological.

"safe" advertising is product information only, without anything further to 'image' it, or whatever.

[5co77ie]

marketing as marketing - all well and good - stealth marketing as news - merely turns our news outlets into advertisers too. Actually come to think of it they already are

[zahidf]

45 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Yep, on things she said were principles.

Which is shown as bollocks by her demand for special treatment for fishermen while we're under EU rules.

If she wants to keep her principles she could have trolled the tories for being liars - but instead she's decided to prove herself a liar.

 

Then why is she now demanding that they have what she'd previously told them they couldn't have?

 

If Ruth or Sturgeon are pro-EU, why are they expecting special treatment from the EU for *just* the fishing industry?

Anyone who understands what the EU are about knows that was never a starter.

Gove and Davidson lied repeatedly to the scottish fisherman about this 

Why on earth shouldnt sturgeon point this out?

[eFestivals]

18 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Why on earth shouldnt sturgeon point this out?

she's not pointing it out, she's demanding they get the promised special treatment.

Which is going against everything she said when campaigning for remaining in the EU, when she said she knew that the EU rules came as a full set.

If she was merely trolling the tories for being liars, that would be beyond criticism. Instead, she's being the mouthpiece for the brexit-loving fishermen and backing their brexit narrative that they should have special treatment while under EU rules.

[Comfy Bean]

21 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

If she was merely trolling the tories for being liars, that would be beyond criticism. Instead, she's being the mouthpiece for the brexit-loving fishermen and backing their brexit narrative that they should have special treatment while under EU rules.

Or... she`s being the "mouthpiece" for the Scottish fishing industry even though the vast majority didn`t vote for her side.

It`s like she`s the First Minister or summit but carry on attacking her while giving May, Gove, Davidson a free pass.

As I said previously, Scottish Tory MP`s are using words like lies and betrayal against their Tory leaders.

Sturgeon told them this would happen, they didn`t listen. She is streets ahead of the likes of Davidson and May.

 

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

Or... she`s being the "mouthpiece" for the Scottish fishing industry even though the vast majority didn`t vote for her side.

Whatever. She still knows it's an arse of an argument, as do you.

Why do you think it's smart to make a shit argument while knowing it's a shit argument? 

I admire the people who make smart, intelligent points.

And not the ones who make shit arguments because it's usefully divisive and nothing else.

[Comfy Bean]

1 hour ago, 5co77ie said:

Interesting that the BBC are leaving out all mention of the Brexit referendum fixing from their news stories on Cambridge Analytica and how they targeted people’s inner demons to influence their vote.
 

Interesting indeed mate. Attached a long article from last year in case you haven`t seen it. I found it quite interesting.

But what is an actual fact is that Gettleson and Borwick, both previously consultants for SCL and Cambridge Analytica, were both core members of the Vote Leave team. They’re both in the official Vote Leave documents lodged with the Electoral Commission, though they coyly describe their previous work for SCL/Cambridge Analytica as “micro-targeting in Antigua and Trinidad” and “direct communications for several PACs, Senate and Governor campaigns”.

And Borwick wasn’t just any member of the team. He was Vote Leave’s chief technology officer.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy

 

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, 5co77ie said:

marketing as marketing - all well and good - stealth marketing as news - merely turns our news outlets into advertisers too. Actually come to think of it they already are

Yup. An awful lot of 'news' is driven by press releases.

All that's really gone on here is CA have been (supposedly) able to target specific messages at specific people, to act on their most-likely triggers/prejudices.

Which is a new thing at that micro level, but it's really only the aim of all marketing - and what we accept marketing as being about.

Which makes this a rather interesting thing. It's like saying "marketing is OK, until it might actually work on me".

I'm guessing someone is going to have to come up with an angle that avoids all this stuff, because there's the death of the advertising industry in here if it's done properly.

[zahidf]

Neil Hamilton formally complains over the BBC not finding any 9 year olds in favour of Brexit

[eFestivals]

25 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Neil Hamilton formally complains over the BBC not finding any 9 year olds in favour of Brexit

UKIP, the party that's now really WelshIP.

It's certainly where it's got the most/biggest representation, now its MEPs have voted themselves out of a job.

[LJS]

9 hours ago, eFestivals said:

So Sturgeon has been thick enough to be believing the tories.

Or she's being duplicitous.

Take your pick.

So, according to you it's OK for Tories to lie because they're Tories & that's what Tories do.

And no one has any right to complain about Tory lies because they're Tories & that's what Tories do.

9 hours ago, eFestivals said:

A new deal is going to require the UK giving up some of what they might otherwise have, same as the old deal did.

I know that. You know that. The Tories knew that. The Tories lied.

9 hours ago, eFestivals said:

The things the UK will give up will include many of the things the EU cherish the most, just as some of the things the EU will give up will be some of the things the UK cherishes the most.

Pas de shit, Poirot.

9 hours ago, eFestivals said:

If you think it's wrong for the UK to do that you need to revise your previous support for being an EU member.

No I don't.

9 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 

The only offence sturgeon and Salmond can take over this is if they are claiming the seas around Scotland as only-Scottish.

You are aware fishing is a devolved matter? Of course you are. you're not stupid.

9 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Which is, against the facts, idiot self-serving deliberately-divisive selfishness.

No it's a fact.

9 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Because it won't only be Scotland which has to make compromises in order for there to be a deal with the EU, either as member or non-member.

Indeed but Scotland will need to be a party to negotiations over devolved areas.

[LJS]

10 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Yup - because no one is going to admit to having been swayed by anything like this.

Mind you, not everyone has been. It's only really the people who started out supporting remain who changed to leave who might have been influenced.

That's ultimately all advertising - the thing you and me make our crusts by

This is one of the most illogical things you have ever said. mainstream advertising is heavily regulated & there are all sorts of rules that advertisers have to follow. 

What is being alleged against Cambridge Anal (&everyone else who is implicated) is completely different.Please explain how acting against that would in any way affect proctor & Gamble's ability to tell us Fairy Liquid is kind to our hands & jolly good value.

10 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Because it's all designed to act on the psychological.

But it is generally clear that it is advertising &  not pretending to be news.

The whole point of the Cam Anal stuff is it passes stuff off as if it is news.

10 hours ago, eFestivals said:

"safe" advertising is product information only, without anything further to 'image' it, or whatever.

define "safe" 

I know its tough for you because you pooh-poohed all the Cam Anal stuff when it come out at first so you don't want to lose face and have to admit you might have been wrong.

I wonder how long you will be able to continue defending the indefensible.

Pass the popcorn.

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, LJS said:

So, according to you it's OK for Tories to lie because they're Tories & that's what Tories do.

And no one has any right to complain about Tory lies because they're Tories & that's what Tories do.

Sturgeon is perfectly allowed to complain about tory lies, but that's not what she's doing. 

Instead, she's taken up[ the brexiter lies as being reasonable and something that should be delivered.

Which is moronic for someone who campaigned as she did, and has said all she's said.

 

10 hours ago, LJS said:

You are aware fishing is a devolved matter?

the current 'fishing' is a devolved matter.

The stuff that's with the EU currently has never been devolved to Scotland, nor was it ever intended to be (because no one actually considered the possibility of the UK leaving the EU).

Awkward facts I know for the little scotlanders, but true facts all the same.

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, LJS said:

This is one of the most illogical things you have ever said. mainstream advertising is heavily regulated & there are all sorts of rules that advertisers have to follow. 

but there's fuck all regulation about how well it might be targeted, there's only regulation around how data can be collected that might be used for that targeting.

Those are two distinct and separate things. 'Perfect targeting' is nothing illegal, and is the ultimate aim of all advertising (after all, which advertiser wants some of their advertising to miss its target?).

Forget about how the data has been acquired for a moment, and just think about the advertising. Someone has done (or at least claims to have done) 'perfect advertising' - and people are going "that shouldn't be allowed".

It ultimately means that people don't have a problem with advertising unless they think it's influencing them - which means people don't accept the very purpose of advertising as a reasonable activity of life.

There's a whole thing here, which - if done logically, reasonably, and in a joined-up way - can *ONLY* mean that *all* advertising (in the way it's done today) should be banned.

(that's not what will happen, of course. The narrative is all about "CA are bad" and fuck all about following thru on what they're doing as the end point, which is 'perfect advertising' [from the advertisers point of view])

 

8 hours ago, LJS said:

What is being alleged against Cambridge Anal (&everyone else who is implicated) is completely different.Please explain how acting against that would in any way affect proctor & Gamble's ability to tell us Fairy Liquid is kind to our hands & jolly good value.

Do you think Proctor and Gamble spend billions a year on advertising while *wanting* huge numbers of the people exposed to it unaffected by it? :lol:

If P&G could do the same 'perfect advertising' as CA claim to have done, they'd be doing it - and your mind would not be your own.

The issue is about the 'mind-altering'. People have just woken up to the fact that minds are being altered by advertising.

It's fuck all about the data used to do it.

After all, if CA had acquired that data without it being useful for advertising (or anything else), why would anyone care?? It would just be a useless jumble of numbers.

The issue is *NOT* the data (tho the advertising industry *needs* you to believe that it is). The issue is the 'mind altering' that's able to be done with that data.

 

8 hours ago, LJS said:

But it is generally clear that it is advertising &  not pretending to be news.

PMSL  - try sitting in a newsroom for a day and see what comes in and what output gets made of it.

Most of the "news" is advertising. There's fuck all new about that part with what CA have done.

 

8 hours ago, LJS said:

define "safe" 

Firstly you need to realise what it is CA have done (or at least, claimed to): they've altered minds.

They've made people do things different to what they'd otherwise have done.
(which is the *sole* purpose of *all* advertising).

'safe' would be having no influence over people's decisions, but instead merely laying information before them (as part of a pile of different information) from which a decision is made.

There's a whole part within economics about this, about how 'true' advertising is product-information-only, with no imaging around the product.

(imaging: "buy this iphone, and be an individual. Having one of a billion iphones shows that you're different to everyone else" )

 

8 hours ago, LJS said:

I wonder how long you will be able to continue defending the indefensible.

You haven't understood a single word of what I've said.

I'm defending nothing at all.

I'm pointing out what the *real* issue is here - which is actually fuck all to do with the data CA have got hold of.

But the advertising industry needs you to believe that it is, because otherwise they're fucked.

So guess what the advertising industry is selling you today? It's selling you "CA are baaaad"

Because that stops the short thinkers from realising that the *real* truth is: "all advertising is bad".

[zahidf]

Great brexit metaphor

Edited March 21, 2018 by zahidf

[zahidf]

TAKING BACK CONTROL

 

[eFestivals]

6 hours ago, zahidf said:

TAKING BACK CONTROL

because Brexit was sold as "everything will now be made in Britain"?

It's amusing that brexiters are kicking off about where the passports get made but that sort of 'piss take' is just pathetic, and as bad as the brexiters complaints. You constantly accuse them of making stuff up, and then your response is to make stuff up.

You might as well be Sturgeon, demanding the brexiters' demands are fulfilled like the most stupid brexiter.

[zahidf]

28 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

because Brexit was sold as "everything will now be made in Britain"?

It's amusing that brexiters are kicking off about where the passports get made but that sort of 'piss take' is just pathetic, and as bad as the brexiters complaints. You constantly accuse them of making stuff up, and then your response is to make stuff up.

You might as well be Sturgeon, demanding the brexiters' demands are fulfilled like the most stupid brexiter.

As you say, its funny that brexitters are upset about it. If they genuinely think its humiliating im def up for rubbing it in