Brexit Schmexit

[feral chile]

4 hours ago, eFestivals said:

You've said it's fine for people not to contribute if the rewards don't suit them - which is the same bollocks from 'the poor' as it is 'the rich'.

It's exactly the same "I'm too good to do what other people might be doing".

 

How is it free-passing anyone by saying *EVERYONE* has to contribute to their existence? :rolleyes:

So if you inherit your wealth and just spend it, avoiding tax as much as possible.....

Or born into privilege....

Luck is much more a factor than you make out. Even resourcefulness.

Edited June 7, 2018 by feral chile

[zahidf]

Boris on Brexit

 

He also wishes we had Trump dealing with Brexit for us????

[eFestivals]

12 hours ago, feral chile said:

So if you inherit your wealth and just spend it, avoiding tax as much as possible.....

Or born into privilege....

Luck is much more a factor than you make out. Even resourcefulness.

That's got fuck all to do with chosen-idleness. :rolleyes:

Chosen-idleness is not a rich-only problem If idleness is a problem its the same problem no matter who is doing it. 

[eFestivals]

6 hours ago, zahidf said:

He also wishes we had Trump dealing with Brexit for us????

To be fair to Boris, he was referencing Trump's unpredictability - and unpredictability is an asset within a negotiation, because the other side doesn't know how to play it.

However, that doesn't get to mean that it would be right for the UK govt to do that, because there's consequences that come from it.

Boris is quite happy for the shit to hit the fan from the negotiations all going wrong and for shit to fall on the head of UK citizens as a result. Boris doesn't care because Boris thinks that Boris will still be fine.

Thankfully, and despite May's long lists of faults, May isn't that much of a c**t. She's attempting (within what the ref result said) to do right by the UK population by aiming for a deal which doesn't kill the economy.
(I disagree with her specific wants, but I'm able to recognise why it is she's taking the line she is - just as I'm able to recognise why Boris is taking his different line).

 

[zahidf]

56 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

To be fair to Boris, he was referencing Trump's unpredictability - and unpredictability is an asset within a negotiation, because the other side doesn't know how to play it.

However, that doesn't get to mean that it would be right for the UK govt to do that, because there's consequences that come from it.

Boris is quite happy for the shit to hit the fan from the negotiations all going wrong and for shit to fall on the head of UK citizens as a result. Boris doesn't care because Boris thinks that Boris will still be fine.

Thankfully, and despite May's long lists of faults, May isn't that much of a c**t. She's attempting (within what the ref result said) to do right by the UK population by aiming for a deal which doesn't kill the economy.
(I disagree with her specific wants, but I'm able to recognise why it is she's taking the line she is - just as I'm able to recognise why Boris is taking his different line).

 

It's the attitude of a man who relied on bullshit and connections his entire life. He's never had to fix anything. 

He's peevish that "short term problems" and "Northern Ireland" are getting in the way, as if they're insignificant. He doesn't attempt to come up with plans to avoid these being problems, just assumes we'll go with the bumpy ride for a bit while he's sat on the fat cushions.

He's exactly the sort of person that shouldn't be left in charge of anything important. And may decided to make him foreign secretary!

And his Trump comments are just the same stupid hard brexitters rule brittania, we used to have a empire bollocks. 'Show johnny foreigner some steel and he will cave in'

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, zahidf said:

It's the attitude of a man who relied on bullshit and connections his entire life. He's never had to fix anything. 

He's peevish that "short term problems" and "Northern Ireland" are getting in the way, as if they're insignificant. He doesn't attempt to come up with plans to avoid these being problems, just assumes we'll go with the bumpy ride for a bit while he's sat on the fat cushions.

I don't think I've ever agreed more with anything you've posted.

 

2 minutes ago, zahidf said:

He's exactly the sort of person that shouldn't be left in charge of anything important. And may decided to make him foreign secretary!

I can understand why May put brexiters in charge of brexit, and sad as it is, within that situation Boris as FS was probably the right thing to do (even tho Boris is the wrong person for everything).

Less understandable is why he's still there. I reckon Boris has spoilt much of the support he had, and i reckon May's position has been strong enough (along with the new Boris weakness) over the last year to have ditched him.

I can only conclude that the situation in the tory party isn't quite as I'm thinking it is, cos presumably May knows what's what with that. She might be useless but she's not particularly dumb, cos she's not got to where she is without being able to read the political situation.

2 minutes ago, zahidf said:

And his Trump comments are just the same stupid hard brexitters rule brittania, we used to have a empire bollocks. 'Show johnny foreigner some steel and he will cave in'

They'd end up coming out as that in their effect, but there was more behind Boris's reference than only that. Unpredictability gives an advantage compared to your intentions being known.

It's little more really tho than the "we're not going to give away our negotiating position" that used to be said. Rather amusingly the tories have recently agreed to publish a full outline of their negotiating position.

----

Am looking forwards to what the EU have to say today about the new 'backstop' position, of it being temporary. I think it could be rather amusing.

 

 

[pink_triangle]

I can understand why Boris is foreign secretary. It looks like he has power without really giving him any. Boris isn't in charge of national foreign policy just like Hunt isn't the decision maker in health.

[zahidf]

13 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I don't think I've ever agreed more with anything you've posted.

 

I can understand why May put brexiters in charge of brexit, and sad as it is, within that situation Boris as FS was probably the right thing to do (even tho Boris is the wrong person for everything).

Less understandable is why he's still there. I reckon Boris has spoilt much of the support he had, and i reckon May's position has been strong enough (along with the new Boris weakness) over the last year to have ditched him.

I can only conclude that the situation in the tory party isn't quite as I'm thinking it is, cos presumably May knows what's what with that. She might be useless but she's not particularly dumb, cos she's not got to where she is without being able to read the political situation.

They'd end up coming out as that in their effect, but there was more behind Boris's reference than only that. Unpredictability gives an advantage compared to your intentions being known.

It's little more really tho than the "we're not going to give away our negotiating position" that used to be said. Rather amusingly the tories have recently agreed to publish a full outline of their negotiating position.

----

Am looking forwards to what the EU have to say today about the new 'backstop' position, of it being temporary. I think it could be rather amusing.

 

 

after his failed leadership bid post referendum, Boris was dead in the water as a politician pretty much though. May could have overlooked him and no one would have blinked

I can understand the reasoning, but Boris, Fox and Davis have the same shamless lying stupidity as Trump. They shamelessly change their position without a second thought and wont feel any guilt over brexit being a fuck up!

Edited June 8, 2018 by zahidf

[eFestivals]

22 minutes ago, zahidf said:

after his failed leadership bid post referendum, Boris was dead in the water as a politician pretty much though. May could have overlooked him and no one would have blinked

Not entirely sure about that. MPs hadn't given up on him at that point, it was his various cock-ups as FS that demonstrated he wasn't a horse to be backing.

 

Quote

I can understand the reasoning, but Boris, Fox and Davis have the same shamless lying stupidity as Trump. They shamelessly change their position without a second thought and wont feel any guilt over brexit being a fuck up!

I don't see it as the same as Trump. Trump is driven only by moment-driven selfish stupidity, while there's more devious plotting to Boris.

Fox and Davies have the stupidity of Trump, but they're also sheep. And I reckon there's few people who'd accuse Trump of being a sheep, despite everything else people say of him.

You're certainly right that they won't take any responsibility for brexit being a fuck up, but they'll claim that's because it's not the brexit it should have been - despite them being unable to say what brexit should be apart from in their fantasies (stuff that the EU would never go for).

Edited June 8, 2018 by eFestivals

[zahidf]

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Not entirely sure about that. MPs hadn't given up on him at that point, it was his various cock-ups as FS that demonstrated he wasn't a horse to be backing.

 

I don't see it as the same as Trump. Trump is driven only by moment-driven selfish stupidity, while there's more devious plotting to Boris.

Fox and Davies have the stupidity of Trump, but they're also sheep. And I reckon there's few people who'd accuse Trump of being a sheep, despite everything else people say of him.

You're certainly right that they won't take any responsibility for brexit being a fuck up, but they'll claim that's because it's not the brexit it should have been - despite them being unable to say what brexit should be apart from in their fantasies (stuff that the EU would never go for).

i dunno, if he had the MPs backing, he would have run for the leadership then. If Gove can make you run away, the backing of the MPs wasnt all that in the first place.

oh i agree fox and davis are sheep (even though nadine dorres disagrees). I just think having them in or out of govt wont change their position or attitude one bit

 

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, zahidf said:

i dunno, if he had the MPs backing, he would have run for the leadership then. If Gove can make you run away, the backing of the MPs wasnt all that in the first place.

I think it was more the case that he wasn't the right leader for that time, rather than they weren't ever prepared to make him leader. Having a remainer like May take brexit forwards was the pretty obvious thing to do given the splits in the party.

I reckon MPs have now given up on him, but there's probably concerns that the members haven't if it came to a contest ... but even the members have given up on him, as Mogg is their new favourite (tho Mogg is unlikely to be in the final 2 of a leadership contest for the member's views to count for Mogg).

If Boris made that final two, there's not a chance in hell he'd withdraw to keep the members out of the decision - and with only really Gove as the other leading possible candidate, the members would probably crown Boris. (it's quite possibly this scenario that's stopping May sacking Boris).

 

2 minutes ago, zahidf said:

oh i agree fox and davis are sheep (even though nadine dorres disagrees). I just think having them in or out of govt wont change their position or attitude one bit

I think they're there to be discredited by their own actions, much like Boris is.

They're doing pretty well at it., too.

If there was an opposition which wanted to take them down, they could easily be taken down - just some videos of stuff they've said along the way would do it (well put together, of course). Unfortunately we have an opposition happy to help a tory brexit along.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

I don't think I've ever agreed more with anything you've posted.

Neil's conversion is now complete

The World's gone mad!!!!

[eFestivals]

Just now, Ommadawn said:

Neil's conversion is now complete

The World's gone mad!!!!

C'mon, I reckon zahid pretty much nailed Boris's self-serving idiocy.

[pink_triangle]

Am I the only one who thinks Javid will be our next PM?

[eFestivals]

19 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Am I the only one who thinks Javid will be our next PM?

oooo, interesting.

Could happen I guess, but to me that would mean a change of leadership a few years from now rather than imminently. IMO he doesn't yet have enough high-level experience to get enough tory backing to land the role.

(and it's worth noting, Home Secretary's only rarely get to be PM - May is one of the few exceptions).

His history outside of politics definitely suggests he's slick enough to become PM, tho I reckon there'd be plenty of tory doubts due to his ethnicity (not necessarily racist-driven doubts, more about how he'd go down with the country).

If it happened it would make more than a few Labour supporters heads explode, who like to run with the 'tories are racist' narrative.

Edited June 8, 2018 by eFestivals

[pink_triangle]

27 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

oooo, interesting.

Could happen I guess, but to me that would mean a change of leadership a few years from now rather than imminently. IMO he doesn't yet have enough high-level experience to get enough tory backing to land the role.

(and it's worth noting, Home Secretary's only rarely get to be PM - May is one of the few exceptions).

His history outside of politics definitely suggests he's slick enough to become PM, tho I reckon there'd be plenty of tory doubts due to his ethnicity (not necessarily racist-driven doubts, more about how he'd go down with the country).

If it happened it would make more than a few Labour supporters heads explode, who like to run with the 'tories are racist' narrative.

I don't see a change of leadership or another election coming anytime soon. I don't think many want to be PM at present.

I think the torys would love to bash labour on how they had the first female pm, the first non white pm and introduced gay marriage. While labour have white men as leader, shadow chancellor and deputy leader.

I hope labour members are willing to look beyond (not necessarily completely exclude) white men in the future. I personally voted for females as both leader and deputy leader after Ed Milliband.

[eFestivals]

5 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Am looking forwards to what the EU have to say today about the new 'backstop' position, of it being temporary. I think it could be rather amusing.

more than amusing, I reckon Barnier might have just killed brexit.

He's said the backstop can only apply to NI and not the whole UK, so the DUP have now got a big dilemma to chew over.

[zahidf]

28 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

more than amusing, I reckon Barnier might have just killed brexit.

He's said the backstop can only apply to NI and not the whole UK, so the DUP have now got a big dilemma to chew over.

HOW DARE HE

 

We should walk away immediately. Doesnt he know how many hours of negotiations went into thatvplan between Davis and May?

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, zahidf said:

HOW DARE HE

 

We should walk away immediately. Doesnt he know how many hours of negotiations went into thatvplan between Davis and May?

unsurprisingly, the UK has told the EU that will never be agreed to.

I say unsurprisingly, because in normal diplomatic terms it's the blackmailing of a country into ceding its sovereign territory. No matter what you think of it, no country in the world could freely agree to that.

That problem has been kicking around since December's agreement, where it was kicked down the road by the 'nothing is agreed until everything is agreed' clause. Now it's necessary to agree some things that can no longer work.

[zahidf]

11 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

unsurprisingly, the UK has told the EU that will never be agreed to.

I say unsurprisingly, because in normal diplomatic terms it's the blackmailing of a country into ceding its sovereign territory. No matter what you think of it, no country in the world could freely agree to that.

That problem has been kicking around since December's agreement, where it was kicked down the road by the 'nothing is agreed until everything is agreed' clause. Now it's necessary to agree some things that can no longer work.

I can think of one easy way to stop ot being a problem:-)

[eFestivals]

Just now, zahidf said:

I can think of one easy way to stop ot being a problem:-)

rather amusingly, from what Boris has been saying what you're thinking is a better option than where we're heading.

[zahidf]

15 hours ago, Ommadawn said:

Neil's conversion is now complete

The World's gone mad!!!!

you supporting boris then?

[eFestivals]

latest polling has the tories 7 points ahead.

Article on the Guardian about Corbyn's brexit position has scathing comments underneath it, with "I can't vote brexit Labour" being said at a hugely greater rate than anything I've seen previously.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/08/the-guardian-view-on-labour-and-brexit-too-timid-too-tactical

Meanwhile, brexiters are becoming ever-more likely to support the tories. 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, zahidf said:

you supporting boris then?

I think a more robust approach would pay dividends

Edited June 9, 2018 by Ommadawn

[zahidf]

46 minutes ago, Ommadawn said:

I think a more robust approach would pay dividends

Why?