Brexit Schmexit

[pink_triangle]

30 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Have you been paying attention? If Labour won an election it would still be a shambles of a govt. In fact it would probably be even more divided over brexit than the tories.

So while I don't approve of it, Jez abdicating his responsibilities is probably his (personal) most effective way forwards, even tho it fucks the country.

There is also no guarantee that labour would win an election when torys stood on a platform that labour were trying to block Brexit.

[sjseabass]

39 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I think you will find the Tory whip threatens a lot and doesnt always follow through, especially without a majority. I’m sure May would have carried on and will continue to carry on. The fact is being PM during Brexit is not a job I think anyone is desperate to take over, while a lame duck can do the work and carry the flack.

In a similar position there is no way Corbyn would have followed the labour whip to vote against a Middle East policy he strongly objected. If you accept that MPS will on occasions be independent, you have to accept that the independent view are sometimes different to your own. However they believe in these things, just as strongly as you have when you disagreed with the labour government in the past.

I really don’t think she would this time. Too many gunning for her from all directions. Whether there would be a Labour government after the dust settled, I don’t know, but it was worth a shot.

On the second paragraph, if Corbyn had acted the same in similar circumstances then he should have the whip withdrawn too. If they have priorities other than getting a Labour government then they’ll be happy to sit as an independent MP espousing those views rather than as a Labour MP.

I note Vauxhall Labour are moving to censure Hoey, I wonder if the others will follow.

[sjseabass]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Have you been paying attention? If Labour won an election it would still be a shambles of a govt. In fact it would probably be even more divided over brexit than the tories.

So while I don't approve of it, Jez abdicating his responsibilities is probably his (personal) most effective way forwards, even tho it fucks the country.

The views of the PLP, members and Labour voters being what they are (especially with Momentum taking a firmer anti-Brexit stance recently), there’s no way EEA/EFTA and/or a second referendum wouldn’t happen. That’s enough for them to be less of a shambles than the Tories.

[sjseabass]

47 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

There is also no guarantee that labour would win an election when torys stood on a platform that labour were trying to block Brexit.

There’s never a guarantee, but the opposition should always want the opportunity to govern. Look at last year when everyone said Labour made a terrible mistake agreeing with the election.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, theevilfridge said:

The views of the PLP, members and Labour voters being what they are (especially with Momentum taking a firmer anti-Brexit stance recently), there’s no way EEA/EFTA and/or a second referendum wouldn’t happen.

I don't have your certainty. Jez is a life-long hard brexiter, remember? He's been voting alongside Cash, Bone, Redwood and the rest for decades.

And he was exceedingly quick at getting his decades-long preferred policy adopted by Labour. Him giving it up is as likely as him giving up no-nukes as party policy if he ever succeeds in getting it adopted as party policy.

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, theevilfridge said:

everyone said Labour made a terrible mistake agreeing with the election.

not me.

Any party that's scared of a democratic vote isn't a party that people will want in power.

That's the reason why all the democrats in the HoC backed a vote on the EU in the first place.

(PS: just in case you come back with it, a second vote about the same thing is something a bit different to the general rule, and particularly when there's been no clear change of mind by the electorate).

Edited July 18, 2018 by eFestivals

[sjseabass]

15 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I don't have your certainty. Jez is a life-long hard brexiter, remember? He's been voting alongside Cash, Bone, Redwood and the rest for decades.

And he was exceedingly quick at getting his decades-long preferred policy adopted by Labour. Him giving it up is as likely as him giving up no-nukes as party policy if he ever succeeds in getting it adopted as party policy.

He wouldn’t have the numbers for it in Parliament, and he’d be going against his own fanclub. Wouldn’t matter what his personal views were. He’d be removed before being allowed to go for hard Brexit.

[sjseabass]

16 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

not me.

Any party that's scared of a democratic vote isn't a party that people will want in power.

That's the reason why all the democrats in the HoC backed a vote on the EU in the first place.

(PS: just in case you come back with it, a second vote about the same thing is something a bit different to the general rule, and particularly when there's been no clear change of mind by the electorate).

Cool, you agree pink_triangle was talking bollocks then.

[pink_triangle]

22 minutes ago, theevilfridge said:

The views of the PLP, members and Labour voters being what they are (especially with Momentum taking a firmer anti-Brexit stance recently), there’s no way EEA/EFTA and/or a second referendum wouldn’t happen. That’s enough for them to be less of a shambles than the Tories.

There is a huge difference in opinion on Brexit with labour members and labour voters!

[pink_triangle]

2 minutes ago, theevilfridge said:

He wouldn’t have the numbers for it in Parliament, and he’d be going against his own fanclub. Wouldn’t matter what his personal views were. He’d be removed before being allowed to go for hard Brexit.

I don't think his fans are aware of his Brexit views, they are pretty much signed up to support regardless.

[zahidf]

I do feel calling for a unity govt and then having a pop at Labour is the BEST way to go

[sjseabass]

5 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

There is a huge difference in opinion on Brexit with labour members and labour voters!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-poll-voters-eu-leave-wrong-theresa-may-negotiations-deal-yougov-a8383826.html

”73% of Labour voters said it was a mistake to leave the EU”. From last month.

[zahidf]

Hoey is in trouble. May well be deselected

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/18/kate-hoey-under-pressure-from-labour-after-siding-with-tories

[eFestivals]

55 minutes ago, theevilfridge said:

He wouldn’t have the numbers for it in Parliament

there's not the numbers for any option in Parliament, so it doesn't make a difference which he chooses.

He doesn't have the numbers for no-nukes, but that hasn't stopped him from keeping on pushing. He's not going to drop an adopted policy that matches his life-long wants.

 

Quote

 and he’d be going against his own fanclub.

I refer you to present policy, where he's going against his own fanclub.

 

Quote

Wouldn’t matter what his personal views were. He’d be removed before being allowed to go for hard Brexit.

you mean like the sensible tried to do after he demanded an immediate hard brexit the day after the vote?

It didn't work then, so I don't see why it would work now. Exactly as you called them, he has a fanclub - and not intelligence-led support.

Edited July 18, 2018 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

53 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I don't think his fans are aware of his Brexit views, they are pretty much signed up to support regardless.

to be fair, most have now cottoned on from what I've seen (tho there's still a significant proportion that haven't).

[eFestivals]

50 minutes ago, theevilfridge said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-poll-voters-eu-leave-wrong-theresa-may-negotiations-deal-yougov-a8383826.html

”73% of Labour voters said it was a mistake to leave the EU”. From last month.

that's merely about the same number of Labour voters who voted against Brexit in the first place.

[eFestivals]

52 minutes ago, zahidf said:

I do feel calling for a unity govt and then having a pop at Labour is the BEST way to go

she called for sensible and pragmatic.

Which by definition excludes the Labour front bench.

[pink_triangle]

1 hour ago, theevilfridge said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-poll-voters-eu-leave-wrong-theresa-may-negotiations-deal-yougov-a8383826.html

”73% of Labour voters said it was a mistake to leave the EU”. From last month.

Labour are not in the position where they can discount the views of 27% of their voters. They lost Mansfield, Stoke and Walsall to the tories last time. Ignoring the views of leave voters could cost them more working class seats.

[pink_triangle]

1 hour ago, zahidf said:

Hoey is in trouble. May well be deselected

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/18/kate-hoey-under-pressure-from-labour-after-siding-with-tories

To me deselection would be a mistake. This was not a vote of no confidence against the government as people have tried to make out.  I think it is important that labour continues to be a broad church representing the diverse views of labour voters.  I dont want them to become a party like the SNP where everyone agrees about everything.

The current labour leader constantly rebelled as a backbencher and I his past record suggests it is very likely he would have voted with Hoey, Stringer etc if he was still sitting on the backbenches. I think its hypocritical for Corbynites now to suggest rebellion is the most terrible thing there is.

[zahidf]

1 hour ago, pink_triangle said:

To me deselection would be a mistake. This was not a vote of no confidence against the government as people have tried to make out.  I think it is important that labour continues to be a broad church representing the diverse views of labour voters.  I dont want them to become a party like the SNP where everyone agrees about everything.

The current labour leader constantly rebelled as a backbencher and I his past record suggests it is very likely he would have voted with Hoey, Stringer etc if he was still sitting on the backbenches. I think its hypocritical for Corbynites now to suggest rebellion is the most terrible thing there is.

Id say campaigning and palling around with Boris and Farage isnt really a Labour MPs job

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Id say campaigning and palling around with Boris and Farage isnt really a Labour MPs job

yet the leader thinks it's his job. Not campaigning with them, but wanting the same thing and happy to vote alongside their most madcap followers.

[pink_triangle]

8 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Id say campaigning and palling around with Boris and Farage isnt really a Labour MPs job

So the 25 percent of labour voters who want to leave should have no representation within the party? The idea that everyone should think the same is baffling to me.

[zahidf]

1 hour ago, pink_triangle said:

So the 25 percent of labour voters who want to leave should have no representation within the party? The idea that everyone should think the same is baffling to me.

Her ward is more like 10% leavers. what about the other 90%?

 

Anyway, should the 48% who voted remain not be represented then?

[eFestivals]

31 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Her ward is more like 10% leavers. what about the other 90%?

 

Anyway, should the 48% who voted remain not be represented then?

The 48% who voted remain are represented. By the LibDems, SNP, Greens, etc. NOT by Labour.

But anyway, PT was very obviously referring to the difference there can be between a party line (which would represent the remainers, if Labour represented the remainers) and a personal line, where there will also be some dissenters on just about any issue. Jez is the living personification of this!

[kaosmark2]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

The 48% who voted remain are represented. By the LibDems, SNP, Greens, etc. NOT by Labour.

But anyway, PT was very obviously referring to the difference there can be between a party line (which would represent the remainers, if Labour represented the remainers) and a personal line, where there will also be some dissenters on just about any issue. Jez is the living personification of this!

They're not represented by the Lib Dems based on Cable and Farron not bothering to turn up.