Brexit Schmexit

[zahidf]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

The first isn't really a biggie, it's a fairly standard view ... tho what he probably means via treason is that they get the "death sentence" (and hasn't realised it was finally abolished for treason 15-ish years ago).

The second is laughable, because it could just as easily be turned round on the brexiters, who are undermining the UK.

Oh, the first one is standard right wing view. It's the second part which is mental.

 

[zahidf]

See, whatever your view on Brexit, I think it's important that we all stay calm and respect the democratic decision that these stupid thick c**ts voted for.

 

[eFestivals]

the idea of stockpiling food is laughable. If there's going to be problems with the food supply, stockpiling isn't going to deal with it.

I can't really see food as one of the issues myself. If necessary, food from the EU can be waived thru no different to now (and they won't stop sending it as long as we're paying).

Similar is the need for extra customs officials. The EU needs to be ready to protect their regime and rules, but the UK won't have a regime and rules as such, so we can afford to wait until it's known they're absolutely necessary before employing extras.

Any problems with stuff coming to the UK is likely to be 'special' stuff - like blood, or medical isotopes, and perhaps medicines and air travel. Awkward and dangerous perhaps, but also limited to small-ish areas and numbers of people.

Its with stuff going to the eu that there'll be real problems ...or more correctly, the no-stuff going to the eu. Either because of customs delays at the eu border or because eu customers have stopped being customers.

[pink_triangle]

Surely this talk about stockpiling food and medication is just political strategy by May trying to get people to fall behind her.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, pink_triangle said:

Surely this talk about stockpiling food and medication is just political strategy by May trying to get people to fall behind her.

perhaps, but it's a risky strategy. 

After all, it's her actions that make it necessary.

[zahidf]

30 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

perhaps, but it's a risky strategy. 

After all, it's her actions that make it necessary.

Yeah. I don't see the upside. The crazies will call it project fear (or a price worth paying), the non crazies are furious it's gotten to this and will blame May for it getting to this point. (Be they Leave or remain)

[eFestivals]

8 minutes ago, zahidf said:

I don't see the upside.

I can only guess its about trying to show the govt as doing its job.

Thing is, if it was really doing its job there'd be no need for those measures.

[zahidf]

 

[sjseabass]

2 hours ago, zahidf said:

 

Excellent news. I think 60 - 40 is getting to the point where it’s pretty indisputable it should be overturned. Can’t see the ‘meaningful vote’ passing in October, especially once the EU have forced May into more concessions, so if Parliament does its job and refuses to countenance no deal we’ll get A50 delayed and a second referendum in summer 2019  

[zahidf]

Whinging Womad need to realise that Brexit means Brexit and should stop trying to stop the govt from implementing their immigration policy!

 

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Whinging Womad need to realise that Brexit means Brexit and should stop trying to stop the govt from implementing their immigration policy!

it's fuck all to do with brexit. It's not EU-ers who need working visas.

 

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Whinging Womad need to realise that Brexit means Brexit and should stop trying to stop the govt from implementing their immigration policy!

 

PS: that tweet is mostly a crock of shit.

The issue womad suffers from is mostly to do with the hassle and cost of getting a visa, which for the one show the UK can support for the sort of artists womad is booking makes it not really worthwhile for that artist.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/26/foreign-musicians-shunning-uk-says-womad-organiser 

And I know at least one festival has a 'visa hotline' to the Home Office to help get past visa issues for its artists, and I'd be surprised if womad didn't get similar help (what they can't get help for is an artist who doesn't apply for a visa).

[pink_triangle]

1 hour ago, theevilfridge said:

Excellent news. I think 60 - 40 is getting to the point where it’s pretty indisputable it should be overturned. Can’t see the ‘meaningful vote’ passing in October, especially once the EU have forced May into more concessions, so if Parliament does its job and refuses to countenance no deal we’ll get A50 delayed and a second referendum in summer 2019  

While I agree, I think blocking it completely would bring up democratic issues. My preference would be a general election with a party putting it in their manifesto. The question is are labour or torys would be willing to campaign for it.

[ThomThomDrum]

1 hour ago, pink_triangle said:

While I agree, I think blocking it completely would bring up democratic issues. My preference would be a general election with a party putting it in their manifesto. The question is are labour or torys would be willing to campaign for it.

But then you are telling people to vote for a party they may not want to vote for for a multitude of other reasons. For example there may be people who simply never want to vote for labour as they are simply not their politics and never have been yet may want to remain and if Labour were the only viable option for a remain proxy vote in a GE then those voters are in somewhat of a pickle, no?

From a democratic perspective surely if it takes a referendum to do something it should take a referendum to alter that, no? What democratic issues does putting a referendum to the public raise BTW? They voted for something and that thing is currently "happening", but if they dont like whats happening surely its very democratic that they get their chance to say such, no? Thats how GEs work.

[pink_triangle]

5 minutes ago, ThomThomDrum said:

But then you are telling people to vote for a party they may not want to vote for for a multitude of other reasons. For example there may be people who simply never want to vote for labour as they are simply not their politics and never have been yet may want to remain and if Labour were the only viable option for a remain proxy vote in a GE then those voters are in somewhat of a pickle, no?

From a democratic perspective surely if it takes a referendum to do something it should take a referendum to alter that, no? What democratic issues does putting a referendum to the public raise BTW? They voted for something and that thing is currently "happening", but if they dont like whats happening surely its very democratic that they get their chance to say such, no? Thats how GEs work.

The reason we had the referendum was because of an election and it should take an election (and pledge for a second referendum) to reverse it. Otherwise it just looks like an establishment stitch up in terms of waiting untill you get the answer you want. Neither torys or labour stood on a platform of another referendum at the last election.

The opinion polling looks promising, but I'm not sure we should be legislating through opinion polls.

 

[ThomThomDrum]

3 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

The reason we had the referendum was because of an election and it should take an election to reverse it

 

Not necessarily true. Many may and would have voted for the Tories in that election not even thinking of a potential Brexit poll. A GE is not (usually) a one issue vote and Im sure a lot of voters did not go to the polls that day thinking of voting for Cameron and his buddies and hoping for Brexit. 

Public opinion can and does change. Politicians already try to take advantage of that when incumbents call GEs at times they believe suit them. If the public opinion around Brexit shifts to a significant majority wanting another say on the issue then they should be afforded that without the farting about with a GE. Anyway another GE could make waters muddier. Look what happened last time.........

[pink_triangle]

20 minutes ago, ThomThomDrum said:

Not necessarily true. Many may and would have voted for the Tories in that election not even thinking of a potential Brexit poll. A GE is not (usually) a one issue vote and Im sure a lot of voters did not go to the polls that day thinking of voting for Cameron and his buddies and hoping for Brexit. 

Public opinion can and does change. Politicians already try to take advantage of that when incumbents call GEs at times they believe suit them. If the public opinion around Brexit shifts to a significant majority wanting another say on the issue then they should be afforded that without the farting about with a GE. Anyway another GE could make waters muddier. Look what happened last time.........

I think it depends what opinion polls you use, I would argue overall it's unclear if public opinion has changed. My view is another referendum with no mandate would look like an attempt to reverse a democratic vote. I think it would result in an increase in popularity of the far right and overall would be detrimental.

Neither the Tory or labour leadership has suggested this is what they want either. If a party is open about it, puts it in a manifesto and campaigns properly and wins, they would be in much better position to argue for a change. 

[zahidf]

36 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I think it depends what opinion polls you use, I would argue overall it's unclear if public opinion has changed. My view is another referendum with no mandate would look like an attempt to reverse a democratic vote. I think it would result in an increase in popularity of the far right and overall would be detrimental.

Neither the Tory or labour leadership has suggested this is what they want either. If a party is open about it, puts it in a manifesto and campaigns properly and wins, they would be in much better position to argue for a change. 

I say wait for a few more opinion polls. If they mirror this one, then public appetite has changed 

An election like that wouldn't work IMO. Too many other factors will be in play. A referendum got us in this match, probably need another one to get us out

[pink_triangle]

3 minutes ago, zahidf said:

I say wait for a few more opinion polls. If they mirror this one, then public appetite has changed 

An election like that wouldn't work IMO. Too many other factors will be in play. A referendum got us in this match, probably need another one to get us out

I agree a referendum would be needed to reverse it, but my view is that pledge for a referendum would need to be campaigned for. As well as looking about thoretical results we also need to see polling about whether people want another referendum. 

[zahidf]

9 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I agree a referendum would be needed to reverse it, but my view is that pledge for a referendum would need to be campaigned for. As well as looking about thoretical results we also need to see polling about whether people want another referendum. 

Nah we don't have time for a decision on that. 

[sjseabass]

I’m presuming that May would have fallen after losing the vote in October, which could easily precipitate another GE. And aren’t Momentum pushing for a second referendum policy to be adopted at the next Labour conference?

[pink_triangle]

22 minutes ago, theevilfridge said:

I’m presuming that May would have fallen after losing the vote in October, which could easily precipitate another GE. And aren’t Momentum pushing for a second referendum policy to be adopted at the next Labour conference?

I'm struggling to see how another referendum happens without an election, I just don't see the torys going for it.

As for momentum for all the talk of them being "hugely pro European" they have played a role in stifling the debate so far.

[Lad]

It's the usual EU thing.The peasants got it wrong so they'll have to try again.Perhaps we'll find out what it'd mean voting to stay.Euro,Schengen,one government,one army etc,It wasn't on the ballot you know.☺

[sjseabass]

36 minutes ago, Lad said:

It's the usual EU thing.The peasants got it wrong so they'll have to try again.Perhaps we'll find out what it'd mean voting to stay.Euro,Schengen,one government,one army etc,It wasn't on the ballot you know.☺

Sounds good to me!

[Lad]

1 hour ago, theevilfridge said:

Sounds good to me!

Great.You can be in the front of any future canvassing.We just didn't hear enough of your great plans in the last one.In fact we didn't hear any.?