Brexit Schmexit

[LJS]

43 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Out of interest what is the SNP policy on Brexit now? You haven't had much coverage south of the border since the last election 

They're still opposed to it. And, if concessions can be made for Northern Ireland, they'd like the same for Scotland.

This is from their website...

What is the SNP’s plan for Brexit?

Scotland didn’t vote for Brexit, we all know that. But if the UK is to leave Europe, we want the best deal for Scotland. Unlike Labour or the Tories, the SNP has a plan on Brexit that would, as far as possible, protect jobs and our economy. 

At present the UK government looks like they’ll get a bad deal, or no deal at all. We don’t want to risk that. Latest research presents a stark picture of the economic shock a bad deal will have on Scotland – warning it will leave every Scot worse off by £2,300 a year, wipe out 80,000 jobs, and damage growth and business opportunities for decades.

The UK government urgently needs to change tack. And Norway’s deal with the EU points the way forward. Norway is not a member of the EU but, in almost all areas, Norwegian businesses trade across the EU without extra charges or barriers. That’s because Norway, like Iceland, Switzerland and Lichtenstein, is in the Single Market. 

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, LJS said:

Ah, I get it.

If Neil disagrees with the result, it's fine to have a 2nd referendum. Even when there is no democratic mandate for one.

On the other hand, if Neil agrees with the result it's not OK to have a 2nd referendum even if there is s democratic mandate for it .

 

there's not a democratic mandate for one in Scotland. It's why Sturgeon bottled it previously.

And if the English are so fucking stupid wanting to cut their own balls off, why is it smart for Scotland to cut off its balls, it's legs and it's arms?

As for another EU ref, it's not going to happen without that democratic mandate, which needs some leadership, which is why I'm so fucking mad at what Labour - and Sturgeon - are doing. Putting their own interests above the country's, just the same as the worst kind of tory.

PS: the EUref that you thought was wrong? It had a democratic mandate. You'll find that I've accepted that all the way thru.

And i'm happy for Scotland to have another ref WHEN it has a democratic mandate. And I hope next time your side isn't as big a c**t as Farage.

Edited September 29, 2018 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

50 minutes ago, LJS said:

They're still opposed to it.

but not enough to call for a 2nd referendum.

Doing the sensible thing would work against the indy dream, so the sensible thing can't be done. Sturgeon would prefer Scots to go over the cliff than do the sensible thing.

[pink_triangle]

1 hour ago, LJS said:

They're still opposed to it. And, if concessions can be made for Northern Ireland, they'd like the same for Scotland.

This is from their website...

What is the SNP’s plan for Brexit?

Scotland didn’t vote for Brexit, we all know that. But if the UK is to leave Europe, we want the best deal for Scotland. Unlike Labour or the Tories, the SNP has a plan on Brexit that would, as far as possible, protect jobs and our economy. 

At present the UK government looks like they’ll get a bad deal, or no deal at all. We don’t want to risk that. Latest research presents a stark picture of the economic shock a bad deal will have on Scotland – warning it will leave every Scot worse off by £2,300 a year, wipe out 80,000 jobs, and damage growth and business opportunities for decades.

The UK government urgently needs to change tack. And Norway’s deal with the EU points the way forward. Norway is not a member of the EU but, in almost all areas, Norwegian businesses trade across the EU without extra charges or barriers. That’s because Norway, like Iceland, Switzerland and Lichtenstein, is in the Single Market. 

That’s the view on going through with Brexit, but do they have a view on second referendum, referendum on the deal etc?

[LJS]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

there's not a democratic mandate for one in Scotland. It's why Sturgeon bottled it previously.

 

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 

PS: the EUref that you thought was wrong? It had a democratic mandate.  

Talk me through this Neil will you?

[LJS]

1 hour ago, pink_triangle said:

That’s the view on going through with Brexit, but do they have a view on second referendum, referendum on the deal etc?

Despite what Neil claims, they are not opposed to a "people's vote" (what a ridiculous phrase) but they have reservations and would insist on some guarantee that if the outcome was the same as last time (Scotland in/England out) that this would result in an attempt to accommodate the democratic will of the Scottish people. I'm guessing they might also try and  get a commitment to holding a second indyref in exchange for support.

Quote

The Scottish Government has held "constructive talks" with the official campaign for a referendum on the final Brexit deal, it has emerged. Holyrood Brexit minister Michael Russell described the meeting with the People's Vote campaign today as a "step forward" but warned that another referendum must guarantee Scotland's voice is heard. The UK-wide "leave" vote in the 2016 Brexit referendum outweighed out the "remain" position north of the border.
 https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-minister-in-talks-with-people-s-vote-campaign-1-4805720

 

[pink_triangle]

13 minutes ago, LJS said:

Despite what Neil claims, they are not opposed to a "people's vote" (what a ridiculous phrase) but they have reservations and would insist on some guarantee that if the outcome was the same as last time (Scotland in/England out) that this would result in an attempt to accommodate the democratic will of the Scottish people. I'm guessing they might also try and  get a commitment to holding a second indyref in exchange for support.

 

I think making that guarantee would be difficult. I guess if the legislation was proposed it would be a risky move for the SNP to block using the "guarantee" reason. Many could see a referendum with no guarantee, as better than nothing.

[LJS]

22 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I think making that guarantee would be difficult. I guess if the legislation was proposed it would be a risky move for the SNP to block using the "guarantee" reason. Many could see a referendum with no guarantee, as better than nothing.

The government appears to be "guaranteeing" all sorts of magic stuff for Northern Ireland. Why can nothing be "guaranteed" for Scotland?

We've already voted to stay in the EU. Our vote was ignored. Why would we be keen to go through that again?

 

 

Edited September 29, 2018 by LJS

[LJS]

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

there's not a democratic mandate for one in Scotland. It's why Sturgeon bottled it previously.

 

sorry to harp on about this but ... can you guess who said this?

"I wouldn't be stupid enough to suggest that the SNP don't have a mandate via their manifesto"

 https://www.efestivals.co.uk/forums/topic/167463-the-dirty-independence-question/?do=findComment&comment=5113766

 

[pink_triangle]

34 minutes ago, LJS said:

The government appears to be "guaranteeing" all sorts of magic stuff for Northern Ireland. Why can nothing be "guaranteed" for Scotland?

We've already voted to stay in the EU. Our vote was ignored. Why would we be keen to go through that again?

 

 

Well they could certainly offer cold hard cash like they did with Northern Ireland, constitutional stuff is a lot more difficult, which is why the cash bribe is preferred. It’s fantasy politics as I think Brexit is happening, however I think the SNP would be damaged if they blocked the “people’s vote” in any circumstances.

[LJS]

1 hour ago, pink_triangle said:

Well they could certainly offer cold hard cash like they did with Northern Ireland, constitutional stuff is a lot more difficult, which is why the cash bribe is preferred. It’s fantasy politics as I think Brexit is happening, however I think the SNP would be damaged if they blocked the “people’s vote” in any circumstances.

We don't want cash. We want to maintain a closer relationship with the EU. 

If they can do it for N.I., they can do it for Scotland.

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, LJS said:

We don't want cash. We want to maintain a closer relationship with the EU. 

If they can do it for N.I., they can do it for Scotland.

because like NI, Scotland has a land border with an EU country...?

What you're asking for wouldn't remove borders but add them. You'd be putting up a border with your biggest (by far) trading partner, to have no borders with a minor trading partner.

But anyway I'm sure your glorious leader will find her bottle soon, but only after *WANTING* the UK to throw Scotland over a cliff so that she could throw Scotland over a bigger one. Farage quadrupled, if you like. 

 

[kaosmark2]

12 hours ago, LJS said:

The government appears to be "guaranteeing" all sorts of magic stuff for Northern Ireland. Why can nothing be "guaranteed" for Scotland?

We've already voted to stay in the EU. Our vote was ignored. Why would we be keen to go through that again?

 

 

Because the Irish border and maintaining the good Friday agreement is more important to consider. 

[pink_triangle]

Is Supergran still going? Maybe she could pull over the land mass of Cyprus to give Scotland that EU border.

[LJS]

53 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

Because the Irish border and maintaining the good Friday agreement is more important to consider. 

More important to whom?

49 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Is Supergran still going? Maybe she could pull over the land mass of Cyprus to give Scotland that EU border.

I'm not sure Cyprus would be happy.

Maybe she could tow us to Cyprus.

[pink_triangle]

1 minute ago, LJS said:

More important to whom?

I'm not sure Cyprus would be happy.

Maybe she could tow us to Cyprus.

How would the Scottish people cope with all that sun! 

[eFestivals]

20 minutes ago, LJS said:

More important to whom?

simple question: what advantage is there to Scotland in staying in the EU and having a border with England, compared to staying in the UK and having a border with the EU?

PS: 'what advantage' isn't answered by saying how much better you think the EU is to the UK.

[LJS]

34 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

simple question: what advantage is there to Scotland in staying in the EU and having a border with England, compared to staying in the UK and having a border with the EU?

PS: 'what advantage' isn't answered by saying how much better you think the EU is to the UK.

Exactly the same advantage as there is to Northern Ireland.

simples.  

We're only asking for the best of both worlds...

[eFestivals]

43 minutes ago, LJS said:

Exactly the same advantage as there is to Northern Ireland.

simples.  

that's a reason to stay in the UK you muppet.  

Cos the reason is two-way borderless access to the whole landmass of NI and Ireland.

The Scottish equivalent is two-way borderless access to the whole landmass of Britain.

[eFestivals]

47 minutes ago, LJS said:

We're only asking for the best of both worlds...

yep. Cake and eat it just like a Farage, a Johnson, a Rees Mogg, and most tories.

[LJS]

5 hours ago, eFestivals said:

that's a reason to stay in the UK you muppet.  

 

No its not. It's an attempt to get the best outcome while we are still in this shitstorm of a union.

5 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 

Cos the reason is two-way borderless access to the whole landmass of NI and Ireland.

Yup. which effectively means borderless access to the EU for Northern Ireland.

5 hours ago, eFestivals said:

The Scottish equivalent is two-way borderless access to the whole landmass of Britain.

No, the Scottish equivalent would be borderless access to the EU for Scotland. 

Please explain to me why only one of these things is possible. 

5 hours ago, eFestivals said:

yep. Cake and eat it just like a Farage, a Johnson, a Rees Mogg, and most tories.

I'm only asking for what we were promised. 

Oh, and I see you've gone quiet on the whole mandate thing.

I wonder why?

[eFestivals]

14 minutes ago, LJS said:

It's an attempt to get the best outcome while we are still in this shitstorm of a union.

the best outcome of a trading agreement is to facilitate the easiest trade in the biggest direction of trade.

Not to deliberately cut your own nuts off.

 

14 minutes ago, LJS said:

Yup. which effectively means borderless access to the EU for Northern Ireland.

that's merely a side consequence of not putting up borders on a island. 

The purpose of what is happening in NI is to not put up borders.

Giving Scotland the same no-borders means there's no border created on Great Britain.

14 minutes ago, LJS said:

No, the Scottish equivalent would be borderless access to the EU for Scotland. 

No-orders on a island landmass makes remaining in the UK the equivalent you muppet.

14 minutes ago, LJS said:

Please explain to me why only one of these things is possible. 

The only joined-at-land treaties that apply to Scotland are with England.

And guess what that treaty that the Scottish people democratically endorsed says?

14 minutes ago, LJS said:

I'm only asking for what we were promised. 

How come you're not asking the same of your glorious SNP? They promised oil would be selling for $120 a barrel for oil, and stupidly bet your whole future prosperity on it.

And while brexit is fucking moronic, it's still less economically moronic than Scottish independence.

14 minutes ago, LJS said:

Oh, and I see you've gone quiet on the whole mandate thing.

what, the mandate that neither Scotland or the UK has for another vote? That mandate?

Just because I want one for the UK doesn't mean I think it has a mandate. It doesn't until the people are clamouring for that vote.

You know, same as the no mandate in Scotland, and the SNP with no bottle to call a vote with no mandate.

Edited September 30, 2018 by eFestivals

[pink_triangle]

LJS do you think it’s possible that SNP would block a deal that they believed was better than “no deal” purely because they felt it would boost their chances of getting and winning an indie vote?

[LJS]

22 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

LJS do you think it’s possible that SNP would block a deal that they believed was better than “no deal” purely because they felt it would boost their chances of getting and winning an indie vote?

No idea PT, I guess it depends what the deal is like. The SNP favours a Norway style deal which we are not going to get. So it would be perfectly consistent with their position if they voted against whatever sort of Chequers Lite is eventually cobbled together. Like any other party I am sure they will take into account "political advantage" in their calculations.

Neil will of course assure you that, whatever they decide, it will be evil.

[pink_triangle]

10 minutes ago, LJS said:

 Like any other party I am sure they will take into account "political advantage" in their calculations.

Neil will of course assure you that, whatever they decide, it will be evil.

I wouldn’t want to talk about good and evil, but as you can understand it’s going to be hard for me to accept parties voting the country worse for political advantages, it won’t be the well paid MPs of any party that are hit the hardest if we end up with no deal.

I still fear for no deal because I can’t see what deal the SNP or Corbynites would accept, both will see no deal as the best opportunity to achieve their political gains. I still feel the only chance for a deal is labour backbenchers spooked by the possibility of no deal, voting something through with the torys.