Brexit Schmexit

[LJS]

1 hour ago, pink_triangle said:

I wouldn’t want to talk about good and evil, but as you can understand it’s going to be hard for me to accept parties voting the country worse for political advantages, it won’t be the well paid MPs of any party that are hit the hardest if we end up with no deal.

I still fear for no deal because I can’t see what deal the SNP or Corbynites would accept, both will see no deal as the best opportunity to achieve their political gains. I still feel the only chance for a deal is labour backbenchers spooked by the possibility of no deal, voting something through with the torys.

I think until we see what god-awful deal is presented, its hard to make a judgement. The SNP has to make a judgement not only on what is best for the UK but also what is best for Scotland. Knowing that Scotland voted to remain in the UK, there is a pretty good argument for saying that they would be quite with their rights to oppose a deal that leaves us in a much worse position than we are now. 

Voting against a shite deal does not mean you are in favour of no deal.

Recent Scottish polls suggest that support for staying int he EU is even higher than the 62% who voted Remain in the EUref and there is also a slightly smaller majority in favour of a Brexit deal referendum.

I'm sure the number crunchers at SNP HQ will have paid particular attention to this bit...

 

Quote

 

SNP voters back a Brexit deal referendum by a margin of more than four to one – 66 per cent to 18 per cent when the don’t-knows have been removed – while for Labour this is 64 per cent to 21 per cent.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-referendum-no-deal-snp-poll-yougov-peoples-vote-jeremy-corbyn-nicola-sturgeon-a8493351.html

 

Of course Labour's position is that the people's vote they want is a general election. It would be hard to see them winning one without a significant recovery in their Scottish vote (27% - 7 seats in 2017)

Unfortunately there is no sign of any recovery - the most recent Scottish poll I could find had them at 25%. and with 4 of their seven seats held by majorities of under 1,000, they could struggle to even hold onto what they have.

Add to the mix, their former leader, throwing doubt on the trustworthiness of the party 

Quote

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-45679511

 

And their current leader stating that if in government they will not allow a second indyref

Quote

 

 https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/richard-leonard-rules-out-labour-support-for-second-scottish-independence-referendum-1-4804119

 

So what's the problem with that? Here's the problem. In a recent poll 23% of Labour voters thought a second indyref should be held in the current Scottish parliamentary term & 24% in the next term.  In another poll 29% of those who voted Labour in the last Westminster election said they would vote "yes" in a new indyref. 

I think a fair few people switched from SNP to Labour at the last Westminster election attracted by Jeremy Corbyn. They knew Labour would oppose independence but not that labour would completely rule out a second Indyref. This is a high risk strategy. It doesn't take many pro Indy Labour supporters to jump ship for labour to be down to 2 or 3  MP's in Scotland.

 

[kaosmark2]

14 hours ago, LJS said:

More important to whom?

People who remember the violence and bombings that were happening 21 years ago. 

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, LJS said:

The SNP favours a Norway style deal which we are not going to get.

yep, more than they favour staying in the EU. Funny how things change, eh?

Meanwhile I reckon that Scotland has a hugely greater chance of voting for indy if the UK stays in the EU, and that indy is dead if we leave - so be careful what you wish for with another indy vote, LJS. Some circumstances will kill the indy dream dead forever.

10 hours ago, LJS said:

Neil will of course assure you that, whatever they decide, it will be evil.

It will be as evil as Farage if sold on lies as big as Farage used - which is what happened in 2014.

Do you want to think the SNP are better than Farage? Then give up the lies and sell indy on the truth. There's no victory in fucking over your fellow Scotsmen.

Edited October 1, 2018 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

7 hours ago, LJS said:

I think until we see what god-awful deal is presented, its hard to make a judgement.

once upon a time, I remember some people arguing that May was insane to say "no deal is better than a bad deal".

Today, the biggest advocates of no-deal are the people who criticised what May said.

[eFestivals]

7 hours ago, LJS said:

Voting against a shite deal does not mean you are in favour of no deal.

and yet no-deal is what they might cause.

And if they do, there'll be no escaping the responsibility of what they've caused to happen.

Which is why Labour have made a fatal mistake trying to say brexit is owned by the tories. It's not, it's owned by 'the people' who voted for it, and through that vote the parties that cause whatever outcome we get. Labour (and others) will not be able to escape responsibility for what they choose to do.

[LJS]

22 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

once upon a time, I remember some people arguing that May was insane to say "no deal is better than a bad deal".

Today, the biggest advocates of no-deal are the people who criticised what May said.

I'm not advocating no deal.

[eFestivals]

18 minutes ago, LJS said:

I'm not advocating no deal.

Glad to hear it.

I was pointing out that at the current time the biggest threat of no-deal is not from Mogg and co, but from people who used to say that "no deal is better than a bad deal" was madness.

[zahidf]

A lot of stupidity and prejudice to still overcome alas

 

[5co77ie]

BREAKING NEWS!
The government has announced that there will be second referendum!

This time on what lettuce the country should use.

The two options on the ballot paper will be:
LEAF or ROMAINE

[eFestivals]

Just now, 5co77ie said:

BREAKING NEWS!
The government has announced that there will be second referendum!

you bastard. For a just moment I was taken in.  

[5co77ie]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

you bastard. For a just moment I was taken in.  

[LJS]

 

[feral chile]

4 minutes ago, LJS said:

 

?

[LJS]

This answers a couple of questions PT asked a few days back.

"Nicola Sturgeon has said Scottish National party MPs would “undoubtedly” support a second EU referendum in a Commons vote, but suggested her party would seek a guarantee that if a majority of Scottish voters again chose to remain in the EU in contrast to the rest of the UK, then Scotland would not be forced to accept the result.

Speaking at the start of her party’s autumn conference in Glasgow, the SNP leader and Scotland’s first minister also said she could not envisage SNP MPs voting for any Brexitdeal that did not include membership of the single market and the customs union."

Sturgeon: SNP would undoubtedly back a people's vote on Brexit

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/07/nicola-sturgeon-snp-undoubtedly-back-peoples-vote-brexit?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

[pink_triangle]

Great news LJS as I said I was worried they wouldnt want to set precident in referendum, glad my concernd were unfounded.

[LJS]

33 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Great news LJS as I said I was worried they wouldnt want to set precident in referendum, glad my concernd were unfounded.

It would be hard for them to oppose a second referendum on one thing while wanting a second referendum on another..

Conveniently, it would of also, as Ruth Davidson has pointed out, weaken the case of those who oppose a second indyref.

Win/win for the SNP.

Edited October 7, 2018 by LJS

[pink_triangle]

36 minutes ago, LJS said:

It would be hard for them to oppose a second referendum on one thing while wanting a second referendum on another..

Conveniently, it would of also, as Ruth Davidson has pointed out, weaken the case of those who oppose a second indyref.

Win/win for the SNP.

I would argue it's slightly different. Another Scottish referendum would be about overturning the status quo. Another Brexit referendum would be about overturning a change.

[lost]

It could be the same as in they believe that we should keep having referendums until they get the result they want.

[LJS]

38 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I would argue it's slightly different.

Of course you would. One could overturn a decision you don't like, the other could overturn a decision you like.

Totally different.

38 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Another Scottish referendum would be about overturning the status quo.

The status quo in 2014 is dead.

38 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Another Brexit referendum would be about overturning a change.

A change you (& I) don't like coincidentally.

 

[eFestivals]

17 hours ago, LJS said:

Sturgeon: SNP would undoubtedly back a people's vote on Brexit

you forgot to mention the conditions she's mentioned, that change it from one thing into another.

[LJS]

11 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

you forgot to mention the conditions she's mentioned, that change it from one thing into another.

No I didn't.

18 hours ago, LJS said:

This answers a couple of questions PT asked a few days back.

"Nicola Sturgeon has said Scottish National party MPs would “undoubtedly” support a second EU referendum in a Commons vote, but suggested her party would seek a guarantee that if a majority of Scottish voters again chose to remain in the EU in contrast to the rest of the UK, then Scotland would not be forced to accept the result.

Speaking at the start of her party’s autumn conference in Glasgow, the SNP leader and Scotland’s first minister also said she could not envisage SNP MPs voting for any Brexitdeal that did not include membership of the single market and the customs union."

Sturgeon: SNP would undoubtedly back a people's vote on Brexit

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/07/nicola-sturgeon-snp-undoubtedly-back-peoples-vote-brexit?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

There, I made it bold this time to help you out.

[eFestivals]

Just now, LJS said:

No I didn't.

There, I made it bold this time to help you out.

apologies.

So anyway, Sturgeon has made an offer she knows the UK cannot accept. So she might as well kept her gob shut. Like she does about iScotland wanting to join the EU. 

It's about stirring the pot, and not about any principled want of being in the EU.

[LJS]

13 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

apologies.

So anyway, Sturgeon has made an offer she knows the UK cannot accept. So she might as well kept her gob shut. Like she does about iScotland wanting to join the EU. 

It's about stirring the pot, and not about any principled want of being in the EU.

Thanks for sharing you opinion.

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, LJS said:

Thanks for sharing you opinion.

No worries.

And I thank you for being unable to give an opinion on where the £10Bn of cuts will fall that you want.

[5co77ie]