Trains and Bricks.

[feral chile]

This link gives access to the inquiry, I didn't know how to link a pdf file.

I'm surprised you're being like this, as I know you disagree with othering.

There are some examples in there of people being assessed for dementia in their second language, children being assessed on development in their second language. Always English. Patient experiences, how difficult it is to explain symptoms in translation, as you don't have the emotional connection with second language emotional words.

I know from experience the disadvantage of trying to have an intelligent debate without the vocabulary you could access in your primary language. How much more important when it's your health?

http://www.comisiynyddygymraeg.cymru/English/Policy, research and data/socialresearch/Pages/My-Language,-My-Health---Inquiry-into-the-Welsh-Language-in-Primary-Care---2014.aspx

Edited October 26, 2018 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

8 minutes ago, feral chile said:

I'm surprised you're being like this

Being like what? :lol: 

I recognise the impossibility of running a must-service-in-Welsh system no differently to how the WNHS and Welsh Govt does.

Which is precisely why there's no compulsion in law to do so, and the best they're offering is advice for how service in Welsh might - just 'might' - be done.

It remains the case that patient safety comes first, and that the professional judgement of pharmacists comes before Nationalist emotion.

8 minutes ago, feral chile said:

I know you disagree with othering.

Oh, something else you don't understand.

Edited October 26, 2018 by eFestivals

[feral chile]

21 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Being like what? :lol: 

I recognise the impossibility of running a must-service-in-Welsh system no differently to how the WNHS and Welsh Govt does.

Which is precisely why there's no compulsion in law to do so, and the best they're offering is advice for how service in Welsh might - just 'might' - be done.

It remains the case that patient safety comes first, and that the professional judgement of pharmacists comes before Nationalist emotion.

Oh, something else you don't understand.

It's not nationalist emotion!

Or if it is, it's English nationalist emotion.

How would you like it if it was the other way around, and you couldn't get your prescription in English?

Or at all, since the patient wasn't the one writing the disage instructions.

Don't forget, these are native Welsh speakers. This is not a political choice for them. They're not part of any pressure group. They just happen to speak Welsh.

That's why I was a bit confused about your comments regarding my Welsh proficiency. I would never use my Welsh. If I had a job where I needed to communicate with Welsh speakers, I'd learn, and hopefully retain it, if it was being used regularly.

This is about people's right to healthcare in their own language, in their country of birth.

 

[zahidf]

Wait! What? Famously razor-sharp Liam Fox, the disgraced former Defence Secretary, with his capacious command of minute detail and Occam's razor-like approach to logic has essentially been proved wrong about a massive, glib assumption that he made in service of ideology? Surely some mistake!

[eFestivals]

11 minutes ago, feral chile said:

It's not nationalist emotion!

it is, to *DEMAND* a service in Welsh from non-Welsh speakers.  

No one is stopping anyone from getting a service in Welsh. It's just not straightforwards-available from non-Welsh speakers.

If it was possible to do what you're demanding, don't you think the Welsh govt might have made it an obligation?

[feral chile]

7 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Wait! What? Famously razor-sharp Liam Fox, the disgraced former Defence Secretary, with his capacious command of minute detail and Occam's razor-like approach to logic has essentially been proved wrong about a massive, glib assumption that he made in service of ideology? Surely some mistake!

Did you mean to post this in here?

This is the 'take it outside' thread 

[feral chile]

16 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

it is, to *DEMAND* a service in Welsh from non-Welsh speakers.  

No one is stopping anyone from getting a service in Welsh. It's just not straightforwards-available from non-Welsh speakers.

If it was possible to do what you're demanding, don't you think the Welsh govt might have made it an obligation?

It's not the fault of the native Welsh in the area, is it?

Look, in South Wales, there's an effort to preserve the language, coming mainly from people whose first language is English.

So if someone whose primary language is English, requested a service in Welsh, that's a choice. Ideally, they should get it,as the language has equal status.

But these primary Welsh speakers are just ordinary folk I'm talking about. Not political campaigners.

You can even get translation services for visitors to the UK. So why can't people born here get services in their born language? Their national language?

And I disagree. I think public services have a duty. You say take it up with the Welsh government. The Welsh government has taken it up.

Edited October 26, 2018 by feral chile

[feral chile]

23 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

it is, to *DEMAND* a service in Welsh from non-Welsh speakers.  

No one is stopping anyone from getting a service in Welsh. It's just not straightforwards-available from non-Welsh speakers.

If it was possible to do what you're demanding, don't you think the Welsh govt might have made it an obligation?

This parent couldn't. And the non Welsh speaking phaemacist was the only one that had the prescription drugs.

I'm sure there were lessons learnt.

[eFestivals]

13 minutes ago, feral chile said:

It's not the fault of the native Welsh in the area, is it?

it's not the fault of a pharmacist, either.

Ultimately, it's the fault of reality, where too-few Welsh speak Welsh - and only the Welsh can change that, by learning Welsh.

To expect a service in Welsh before the population can speak Welsh is just dumb.

[eFestivals]

15 minutes ago, feral chile said:

Ideally, they should get it,as the language has equal status.

ideally, money would rain from heaven.

Back in the real world are finite resources, and decisions that have to be made about the best way to use those finite resources.

And no one is wanting their own medical treatment taken away so that Nationalist emotions can be soothed. Not even you, I suspect.

[feral chile]

10 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

ideally, money would rain from heaven.

Back in the real world are finite resources, and decisions that have to be made about the best way to use those finite resources.

And no one is wanting their own medical treatment taken away so that Nationalist emotions can be soothed. Not even you, I suspect.

I think that as it's a bilingual country, the cost will end up the same.

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, feral chile said:

I think that as it's a bilingual country, the cost will end up the same.

but it's not a bilingual country. Most Welsh can't speak Welsh.  

[feral chile]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

it's not the fault of a pharmacist, either.

Ultimately, it's the fault of reality, where too-few Welsh speak Welsh - and only the Welsh can change that, by learning Welsh.

To expect a service in Welsh before the population can speak Welsh is just dumb.

It might be the fault of Morrison's for not anticipating the problem, but we don't have enough information for that. I certainly think it could have been handled better.

It's ultimately something the Welsh Government should deal with.

Morrison's cocked up some bilingual signs, too.

[feral chile]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

but it's not a bilingual country. Most Welsh can't speak Welsh.  

It's officially a bilingual country, and North Wales still has people for whom Welsh is their first language. That's not a matter of choice. Any more than me being an English speaker is. It's whatever language you're born into.

Looking at the ages here, it's the older generation who have the most Welsh speakers. So a potentially vulnerable group.

I don't know if this is still the case, but there were some older people who only spoke Welsh.

 

Edited October 26, 2018 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

24 minutes ago, feral chile said:

It might be the fault of Morrison's for not anticipating the problem, but we don't have enough information for that.

the Welsh govt have considered the problem both before and after that incident - and clearly feel that an obligation would be the wrong policy to have.

But you want to farm that off onto an english-based firm, but nothing of this is about Nationalist emotion. :lol:  

 

[eFestivals]

26 minutes ago, feral chile said:

It's ultimately something the Welsh Government should deal with.

they already have.

Guess why they don't agree with you?

[eFestivals]

23 minutes ago, feral chile said:

it's officially a bilingual country

says the single-language resident of that country. :lol:  

[feral chile]

20 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

says the single-language resident of that country. :lol:  

The signs are bilingual, both languages have equal status.

Nobody forces you to speak Welsh. It can be a job requirement though.

You're not good with the big picture, are you? A bilingual country doesn't mean everyone's bilingual. It means that there are 2 official languages.

[feral chile]

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/state-welsh-language-number-people-8538272

I agree with this:

Preserving the Welsh language is an emotive issue because it comes after hundreds of years of attempted linguicide by the English authorities. In the 19th century, children who spoke their native language in the playground were required to wear a heavy block of wood inscribed, with the words “Welsh not”, around their necks. Within living memory, people who strived for their civil rights and the preservation of their language were jailed and penalised financially.

Monoglot users of the majority language are often shocked to find they need to operate in a multilingual context because of these hard-won civil rights. To my mind, the mild paranoia monoglots experience is nothing compared with long years of discrimination, often state-sponsored, suffered by minority language speakers. This is why this “debate” is so emotive – a colonial legacy has left its mark in Wales, and it sticks in the craw that otherwise liberal readers might criticise minority-language activists in the UK as narrow nationalists where they would support similar struggles elsewhere in the world.

Edited October 26, 2018 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

35 minutes ago, feral chile said:

both languages have equal status.

except with the Welsh population.  

[eFestivals]

36 minutes ago, feral chile said:

Nobody forces you to speak Welsh.

Currently, that's true.

But *YOU* are trying to force people - but just other people, you're giving yourself a freebie - into doing it.

While not suggesting what should be given up in order to achieve it, either.

[eFestivals]

37 minutes ago, feral chile said:

It means that there are 2 official languages.

but not two languages with equal legal obligations.

[eFestivals]

33 minutes ago, feral chile said:

I agree with this:

you agree with unenlightened drivel to drive Nationalist emotion. Yeah, I know. We've been round this already.

Meanwhile back in the real world the only thing stopping Welsh people speaking Welsh is Welsh people.

Want to change that? Then perhaps start by making it compulsory to learn at school, and in a generation or two it might be possible to have the country work in Welsh.

[feral chile]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

you agree with unenlightened drivel to drive Nationalist emotion. Yeah, I know. We've been round this already.

Meanwhile back in the real world the only thing stopping Welsh people speaking Welsh is Welsh people.

Want to change that? Then perhaps start by making it compulsory to learn at school, and in a generation or two it might be possible to have the country work in Welsh.

This is a separate argument. I'm only concerned, at this stage, of ensuring that first language Welsh speakers can get the services they need. It's poor that Morrison's couldn't cater for 50% of its customers, when by the same token, 50% of its potential workforce could speak Welsh. It should be much easier to comply with the bilingual policy in Bangor than in South Wales, yet I haven't heard of a pharmacist refusing a prescription here.

[feral chile]

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Currently, that's true.

But *YOU* are trying to force people - but just other people, you're giving yourself a freebie - into doing it.

While not suggesting what should be given up in order to achieve it, either.

I don't serve Welsh speakers. If there was a business need, Welsh courses are available through my employer. If I had another living soul who I could speak Welsh to, I would.

I used to, back in the day. It's difficult to have anything but the most superficial discussions when you're a dysgwr and everyone else is yn rhugl.

See, coming back to me now. Had to look up how to spell rhugl though.

Edited October 26, 2018 by feral chile