Respect the Females (and other rules)

[HalfAnIdiot]

7 minutes ago, Yoghurt on a Stick said:

Well said kalifire. As H.M.V. has indicated, it's quite ironic that a post from a male has helped create some clarity (for me) on, what appears to be, the female viewpoint on this forum. Your post was a very good catalyst for expression from others. 

I'll be really honest here - I never, in my life, thought, at all, that the 'Phillipa' thing would ever cause upset. I honestly had no idea. I remember going to a manager once and nearly breaking down in front of him saying "your giving me too much work to do". His response was something along the lines of " Why didn't you come to me earlier. If you don't tell me something's wrong, then how am I supposed to know that there is something wrong"?  So, I'm glad that I've read this thread tonight, because it has educated me - somewhat.

 

 

If it helps I try to turn these stories/anecdotes around to help guage how they might feel to a woman before jumping in. Sometimes it works but I really just don't think we (men) truly 'get it'.

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

5 minutes ago, H.M.V said:

Yog, thanks. But your analogy is out somewhat. You need to add another line, 'but I have been telling you, for years..'

I'm a little stoned now (natch) but can't recall a campaign by you on this subject. I recall an incident of it (but not the contents of that incident). I'm not saying that you haven't, it's just that I don't read all threads and probably missed it. 

[MetaKate]

 

25 minutes ago, HalfAnIdiot said:

To lighten the mood. The 'and other rules' bit: No enormous hats when watching bands. I've already said I'm 6ft 3" yet I 'always' seem to end up with an enormous hat blocking my view several times in the day.

Ban the hat!

I realise I may not get full support on this given the number of forum members that have a strong liking for hats ?

 

11 minutes ago, H.M.V said:

I'd like if tall people especially with hats wouldn't stand in front of me at the last minute before a gig. I get it, you're tall you can't help it. But I'm 5'2 and get to a gig a bit early so I can then start manoeuvring around according to height. Get myself a sweet spot then boom gig starts Mr 7 foot dude and his friends are a blockade to much my fought and thought out view. 

On this point.. I'm all for segregation if its for height. This literally happens to me every time ? 

I try not to let tall people past me without mentioning to them how short I am! Its another one of those issues that no one is being purposefully rude they just have no idea what its like being short in a crowd. People are usually really good about it to the point that the last fest I was at, I got almost to the front for FATM because people kept going "oh youre so short just go in front of me! 

[MetaKate]

29 minutes ago, kalifire said:

Whilst I vehemently disagree with them, I can appreciate how some men can feel about this subject. Attitudes and behaviour which have been the norm, have largely gone unchallenged and even justified as ‘lad culture’ or ‘locker room talk’. It’s never been acceptable but because it’s existed in lots of forms across culture, and toleration of it has become internalised by many women, it’s come with an illusion of justification.  

Now casual misogyny and outright disrespect against women is being rightly called out, some men feel affronted and even powerless. They’re perpetrators in a debate that is being delivered right to their doorstep. 

You sometimes hear some men saying things like ‘but I would never’, and acting exasperated that their own relationship with women is being questioned, as if they’re being lumped in with the more vile offenders they share little in common with, let alone misogyny. 

To those men, I would say: it isn’t about you. Although it can seem natural to reel defensively when your gender associates you with accusations that don’t seem to fit, what we’re talking about here is systemic. It’s about cultural standards and norms that many of us as guilty of perpetuating, even if only by omission. Although I would never dream of knowingly disrespecting women, I know I bear some responsibility by being around others who have and keeping my mouth shut. Many of us have been in that locker room and said nothing. 

If it all seems too much, I get it. There’s a lot of anger surrounding this, steadily boiling over many years until very recent events like Trump’s pussy grab tape, Weinstein’s story of standardised abuse, etc. caused it to explode and many people to say ‘enough of this shit’. 

While it’s temptimg to lash out and defend how righteous our own behaviour might be, I think the correct attitude is to listen, to try and understand, and to check our own behaviours. Women have had to endure putting up with repugnant attitudes of sexual ‘fair game’ and abuse for decades. Acting in self-defence and getting irritated by those who’ve had to put up with it is just another part of the problem. 

As far as Glastonbury goes, I can’t think of a better place to talk about this, a safer place for people to speak up, or a more supportive place - both for those on the receiving end of this or those who’re starting to realise their place in it all. 

Sorry to go on. 

Really well said. 

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

1 minute ago, HalfAnIdiot said:

but I really just don't think we (men) truly 'get it'.

Yes, evidently not.

 

[Hugh Jass]

1 hour ago, Tranquility of Solitude said:

Yeah, me too.

I've also been guilty of jokes about the van in the past.

[Quark]

1 hour ago, Tranquility of Solitude said:

The t shirts are a great idea .  Perhaps avatars as well. . I for one would pay, and if there was enough demand it might make a bit of cash for the site  @eFestivals @Kizzie ?

I may have found a Quarks Bar t shirt online....

 

 

[H.M.V]

1 minute ago, Yoghurt on a Stick said:

I'm a little stoned now (natch) but can't recall a campaign by you on this subject. I recall an incident of it (but not the contents of that incident). I'm not saying that you haven't, it's just that I don't read all threads and probably missed it. 

Yog, I did post earlier that I mentioned it, said I would give downvotes for it and followed through. Are you asking me to prove the post was ignored? Cos to be fair, it would be easier to find one that was quoted and liked. The fact for me is, is that it has been mentioned in passing and also in stand alone posts. 

Also, it is not my job to police the forum and write the rules of behaviour. The general feeling is glowing but attitudes are harder. I find myself a victim of the same stereotypes. 

[HalfAnIdiot]

4 minutes ago, MetaKate said:

 

 

On this point.. I'm all for segregation if its for height. This literally happens to me every time ? 

I try not to let tall people past me without mentioning to them how short I am! Its another one of those issues that no one is being purposefully rude they just have no idea what its like being short in a crowd. People are usually really good about it to the point that the last fest I was at, I got almost to the front for FATM because people kept going "oh youre so short just go in front of me! 

A recent phenomenon I've noticed is people with fold up steps they unfold and stand on. It started with kids and has now spread to adults.

I'm not sure where I stand (pun intended) on these. I can see the benefits but where will it all end....

[somecoolusername]

1 hour ago, HalfAnIdiot said:

Lots of anger bubbling up again sadly. I do think this is, at least in part, due to the medium.

Back to the subject for a moment. Abuse of women at gigs is a big issue that needs to be aired and stopped. There have been some high profile cases and some great reactions from bands calling people out for this behaviour but I sincerely think this is just scratching the surface. More needs to be done and frankly it is up to 'us' to fix things. 

Please keep an eye out for unacceptable (and illegal) behaviour towards women call it out and stop it.

I speak as a middle aged man with two teenage daughters who will be out and about on their own and with friends at the festival, so yes I have some self interest. I've also been sexually harassed by a woman many years ago, it was really rattled me and I'm 6ft 3in, I can only imagine what it feels like to be abused as a woman, respect to you all. 

It's rubbish tbh. I've been going to gigs since I was 12; I'm 25 now. It's basically my favourite thing to do, which is why I do it so much, but 3 times in the last month or so I've been inappropriately touched by men at gigs. Usually you can't even see (for sure) in a crowd who's doing what, which I think is taken advantage of. At one last week I could for sure and turned around and shouted at the guy to fuck off, but generally there's no recourse. It just means moving to the back when I'd rather be near the front so I can see who's grabbing me.

And yeah, you do just get dickheads at gigs. I've been with male friends and dudes have started on them for no reason. However I don't think it's made them think twice about going to gigs again, whereas yep, it's made me not want to do my favourite thing ever again.

[H.M.V]

1 minute ago, somecoolusername said:

It's rubbish tbh. I've been going to gigs since I was 12; I'm 25 now. It's basically my favourite thing to do, which is why I do it so much, but 3 times in the last month or so I've been inappropriately touched by men at gigs. Usually you can't even see (for sure) in a crowd who's doing what, which I think is taken advantage of. At one last week I could for sure and turned around and shouted at the guy to fuck off, but generally there's no recourse. It just means moving to the back when I'd rather be near the front so I can see who's grabbing me.

And yeah, you do just get dickheads at gigs. I've been with male friends and dudes have started on them for no reason. However I don't think it's made them think twice about going to gigs again, whereas yep, it's made me not want to do my favourite thing ever again.

Yup. But I will still go to gigs by myself. BUT I won't drink. 

[Quark]

48 minutes ago, H.M.V said:

I'll have hair and be the drunk Irish sweary one. Attire weather dependant. 

Generally hear you before seeing you, that's pretty much how I found you at the meet! 

[Hugh Jass]

2 minutes ago, HalfAnIdiot said:

A recent phenomenon I've noticed is people with fold up steps they unfold and stand on. It started with kids and has now spread to adults.

Surely they only work at gigs where everyone is stood perfectly still?

[H.M.V]

1 minute ago, Quark said:

Generally hear you before seeing you, that's pretty much how I found you at the meet! 

Isn't that how everyone finds me? Although @Pear_Cider spotted me from my old avatar the first time I went and was an absolute petal. Always make a point to have a yay we're on the farm hug. We missed 2016, stupid mud. 

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

2 minutes ago, H.M.V said:

Yog, I did post earlier that I mentioned it, said I would give downvotes for it and followed through. Are you asking me to prove the post was ignored? Cos to be fair, it would be easier to find one that was quoted and liked. The fact for me is, is that it has been mentioned in passing and also in stand alone posts. 

Also, it is not my job to police the forum and write the rules of behaviour. The general feeling is glowing but attitudes are harder. I find myself a victim of the same stereotypes. 

Hello HMV,

I'm erring on the side of dementedly stoned this end, and am having difficulty understanding what you are saying. All I do know, is that this thread has given me an education, which is obviously one in the right direction - well, at least I think so. Some scales have been removed from my eyes.

[henry bear]

2 hours ago, zico martin said:

This is the thing, I'd love to know who else is in this gang as I walk around the farm, perhaps Neil should arrange t-shirts with user names on

We should all make badges of our avatars. I was thinking of doing it anyway 

[HalfAnIdiot]

14 minutes ago, somecoolusername said:

It's rubbish tbh. I've been going to gigs since I was 12; I'm 25 now. It's basically my favourite thing to do, which is why I do it so much, but 3 times in the last month or so I've been inappropriately touched by men at gigs. Usually you can't even see (for sure) in a crowd who's doing what, which I think is taken advantage of. At one last week I could for sure and turned around and shouted at the guy to fuck off, but generally there's no recourse. It just means moving to the back when I'd rather be near the front so I can see who's grabbing me.

And yeah, you do just get dickheads at gigs. I've been with male friends and dudes have started on them for no reason. However I don't think it's made them think twice about going to gigs again, whereas yep, it's made me not want to do my favourite thing ever again.

It's hard to know what to say to that. 

I can only hope that you do get to do your favourite thing and do it in safety l and also that society 'us' sorts it's sh#t out and puts a stop to this.

Misogyny  is rife and needs to be changed in all its forms.

Edited October 23, 2018 by HalfAnIdiot
Typo

[HalfAnIdiot]

8 minutes ago, Hugh Jass said:

Surely they only work at gigs where everyone is stood perfectly still?

Only seen them at festivals, seem to be a growing trend from my observations. But yeah, they do limit the dancing a little!

Best solution is a sloping field and politeness really.

[somecoolusername]

9 minutes ago, H.M.V said:

Yup. But I will still go to gigs by myself. BUT I won't drink. 

I love a solo gig - it's probably conditioning from growing up and none of my friends really liking the music I liked - so I had to get used to going on my own! Now I do have friends that like the music I like but it's still fun to go alone sometimes.  Just have to be much more aware of my surroundings if I'm at a gig by myself

[Hugh Jass]

Just now, HalfAnIdiot said:

Only seen them at festivals, seem to be a growing trend from my observations. But yeah, they do limit the dancing a little!

Best solution is a sloping field and politeness really.

Indeed, unless you're very short then breaking out some steps is going to impair the view of the poor sod stuck behind you.

Pretty selfish really.

[somecoolusername]

6 minutes ago, HalfAnIdiot said:

It's hard to know what to say to that. 

I can only hope that you do get to do your favourite thing and do it in safety l and also that society 'us' sorts it's sh#t out and puts a stop to this.

Misogyny  is rife and needs to be changed in all its forms.

yeah, don't worry, it won't stop me going to gigs. 

It's weird because it can feel very personal, like a) how dare you and b) I feel differently about a band I love now. Which might not make a huge amount of sense but it can taint an experience that would otherwise be completely positive. 

So it's heartening to see discussions like this happening at least.

Let's wipe that shit out 

[HalfAnIdiot]

1 minute ago, somecoolusername said:

yeah, don't worry, it won't stop me going to gigs. 

It's weird because it can feel very personal, like a) how dare you and b) I feel differently about a band I love now. Which might not make a huge amount of sense but it can taint an experience that would otherwise be completely positive. 

So it's heartening to see discussions like this happening at least.

Let's wipe that shit out 

It does make sense. Out of upvotes. I hope you have a great time at your next gig.

[somecoolusername]

Just now, HalfAnIdiot said:

It does make sense. Out of upvotes. I hope you have a great time at your next gig.

thank you  you too 

[MetaKate]

38 minutes ago, HalfAnIdiot said:

A recent phenomenon I've noticed is people with fold up steps they unfold and stand on. It started with kids and has now spread to adults.

I'm not sure where I stand (pun intended) on these. I can see the benefits but where will it all end....

I would rather die. 

Too dramatic? ?

Seriously though I'm not stationary at a gig and would rather be able to dance vs. see. 

[HalfAnIdiot]

1 minute ago, MetaKate said:

I would rather die. 

Too dramatic? ?

Seriously though I'm not stationary at a gig and would rather be able to dance vs. see. 

Nailed it!