Brexit at Glasto?

[Matt42]

2 minutes ago, Ayrshire Chris said:

People have been manipulated by the right wing press and xenophobic comments from Farage .  As I say, rhetoric and soundbites are attractive to voters, hard facts and serious examination of the consequences of Brexit didn’t appeal to many.  We are seeing the same up here. Wave a flag and blame someone else, the easy way to attract voters. 

I see this the other way round tbh. The right wing press have instead tapped into a widely felt British belief that Britannia rules the waves.

They put this shit in their papers because it sells papers. The xenophobia was already there. They put things into their paper that their readership want to see. I think xenophobia has actually come from the bottom up not the top down.

Farage has actually never had enough support to become an MP. I don’t think he’s as nationally popular as he believes he is.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Matt42

[Ayrshire Chris]

12 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

I see this the other way round tbh. The right wing press have instead tapped into a widely felt British belief that Britannia rules the waves.

They put this shit in their papers because it sells papers. The xenophobia was already there. They put things into their paper that their readership want to see. I think xenophobia has actually come from the bottom up not the top down.

Farage has actually never had enough support to become an MP. I don’t think he’s as nationally popular as he believes he is.

Sadly you may be right. We sometimes deny the level of racism etc that exists in the country. It’s an uncomfortable fact to believe and is exploited by certain factions. 

Edited January 31, 2020 by Ayrshire Chris

[Matt42]

7 minutes ago, Ayrshire Chris said:

Sadly you may be right. We sometimes deny the level of racism etc that exists in the country. It’s an uncomfortable fact to believe and is exploited by certain factions. 

I just feel like without being too out there, there is something biological in us that heavily influences our decision making. Feelings of fear and anger can either be controlled or lapped up.

Some people succumb to these feelings easier than others. I think it all comes down to education honestly. This is where the distrust of experts comes from. People who have had no education hate the expert because it exposes them to a simple fact that they don’t know everything in this world and they might not be as skilled as they think they are.

right wing press tells these people that they are actually the best of society. This is why they flock to these materials. They don’t like looking inward, would rather blame the problem on something outward.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Matt42

[Quark]

I reckon there's an element of both, but Matt's definitely nailed it to a significant degree.

As a nation (and I'm talking about an average rather than individuals) we think we punch above our weight in pretty much every aspect. Political and economic clout, sports, military power, all of it.  We have a massively over-inflated sense of our own importance to the world.

The whole spectrum from full blown racism all the way down to the casual, almost harmless xenophobia, is representative of that. What we're seeing now is it coming fully to the surface.  And I  think it's everywhere. Racism in football, while infinitely better than it was 40 years ago, feels like it's getting more vocal again.  I don't think it's coincidence that poppies as a symbol of remembrance are now a year-round thing.  Everything feels like it's developing an almost siege-like mentality of Britain standing tall. And it's depressing.

[Matt42]

I am fortunate in the fact that my life will probably be unaffected by either staying or leaving the EU. I am lucky to work in an industry which will probably benefit from brexit.

Still an ardent remainer.

It genuinely hurts my heart to see people excited for the promise of benefits they will probably be back of the line to receive. 

All the big corporations will protect themselves if the economy hits the wall. The low skilled workers at the bottom of the ladder will get the scraps as usual. I find it so upsetting that there is a strong belief that things won’t be this way.

6 minutes ago, Quark said:

The whole spectrum from full blown racism all the way down to the casual, almost harmless xenophobia, is representative of that. What we're seeing now is it coming fully to the surface.  And I  think it's everywhere. Racism in football, while infinitely better than it was 40 years ago, feels like it's getting more vocal again. 

Less foreigners 

Sovereignty 

Immigration control

Jobs back home

respect for national values 

These are strong and deal breaking promises that politicians can make. It is honestly a winning ticket to a victory. The problem with the Labour Party and all remain parties is they no longer promise these things. This is what the average joe wants to hear and if you don’t promise them it, they won’t vote for you.

Its even more disturbing when you consider this in the wider context of political discourse. We are reaching a point where promoting diverse and open minded values is now risky political discourse — wide ranges of the country don’t want it. They don’t want diversity.

[Hugh Jass]

We never had Coronavirus in this country when we were in the EU.

Just saying...

[priest17]

At least we can enjoy Katie Hopkins getting a fake Campaign to Unify the Nation Trophy (there's a video to go with it but her speech at the end is just fucking grim and I don't think this thread needs it)

[Quark]

Saw this on twitter, and I honestly don't know how I feel about it.  Things like Hopkins need to be called out directly, not like this. However much I agree with the sentiment.

[Matt42]

4 minutes ago, Quark said:

Saw this on twitter, and I honestly don't know how I feel about it.  Things like Hopkins need to be called out directly, not like this. However much I agree with the sentiment.

You know how trump said he could shoot someone in broad daylight and not lose a single voter? Katie Hopkins following is the same.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Matt42

[eFestivals]

53 minutes ago, stuie said:

Sure, but without Brexit there wouldn't be a mandate for a second indy ref. 

there might be an argument that Brexit makes indy more appealing, but that still doesn't make it a smart idea.

 

53 minutes ago, stuie said:

The problem is, in a second indy ref, you'll get the people who voted for independence the first time AND a % of people who didn't want brexit, all voting for independence.  It's only going to go one way isn't it?

I'm not entirely sure about that. I reckon there'll be plenty who've been able to make the link between the effects of brexit and the effects of indy.

Because if loosening your links with your biggest trading partner is a bad idea, then loosening your links with your biggest trading partner is a bad idea, and worse when it's about waaaaay more than just trading links.

[eFestivals]

40 minutes ago, Ayrshire Chris said:

Sadly you may be right. We sometimes deny the level of racism etc that exists in the country. It’s an uncomfortable fact to believe and is exploited by certain factions. 

I'd say the racism* angle is over-played, and it's much more about the much more simple and self-focused/selfish of "the govt should put the people here first".

(* there are of course racists, I'm not claiming different).

On TV last night was 'Ed Balls in Euroland" which showed much the same, of people voting for 'change' parties not because they supported everything about those parties, but because they weren't the existing parties who they blamed for ignoring them and doing too much for non-citizens.

[priest17]

25 minutes ago, Quark said:

Saw this on twitter, and I honestly don't know how I feel about it.  Things like Hopkins need to be called out directly, not like this. However much I agree with the sentiment.

Things like Hopkins are constantly called out. Like, non-stop. Everywhere you look. All it does is inflate their ego and get their supporters backs up. I'm in such a mood today that seeing someone who gleefully laughs at those worse off than themselves and gets paid to do it has a bit of their pride chipped away at slightly is a bit of a laugh.

Its not a massive statement or anything at the end of the day its a prank on a twat. I can see the moral ambiguity though and understand people feeling uncomfortable with it though.

Edited January 31, 2020 by priest17

[mcshed]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

there might be an argument that Brexit makes indy more appealing, but that still doesn't make it a smart idea.

The problem with this is whilst both parts of the UK were within the EU the arrangements for frictionless trade, movement, labour, etc were already in place out with the EU the arrangement is less clear and with Indy Scotland's supposed intention of rejoining the EU it becomes downright problematic.

[stuartbert two hats]

23 hours ago, philipsteak said:

I try really really hard to not think poorly of people just because they voted a different way to me, but between this and the Brexit Party lot acting like c**ts with their flag waving stunt it's getting tougher

https://www.chortle.co.uk/news/2020/01/30/45298/brexiteer_comic_dominic_frisbys_bid_for_no1?rss

It's not the fact that i disagree with the message that makes it shit, it's the fact that it is just so shit that makes it shit

"He added that he would be giving profits from his song to a charity set up to help the victims of grooming gangs."

What a c**t.  Even his donation to charity is a racist dog whistle

[jimmillen]

If you've got plenty of time on your hands and want a seriously in-depth look at what's going on in our societies to make people vote for Brexit, or for Trump, then check this out: 

https://waitbutwhy.com/2019/08/story-of-us.html

It's a bit nerdy but certainly made me look at things a bit differently. Plus it's illustrated with stick men, always a plus.

[eFestivals]

11 minutes ago, mcshed said:

The problem with this is whilst both parts of the UK were within the EU the arrangements for frictionless trade, movement, labour, etc were already in place out with the EU the arrangement is less clear and with Indy Scotland's supposed intention of rejoining the EU it becomes downright problematic.

with what the tories are saying for the new EU deal, it would mean a customs border between England and Scotland.

[grilladelphia]

17 minutes ago, priest17 said:

Its not a massive statement or anything at the end of the day its a prank on a twat.

this  

[mcshed]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

with what the tories are saying for the new EU deal, it would mean a customs border between England and Scotland.

Which when suggested as a possible consequence back in 2014 it was dismissed as ridiculous project fear scaremongering because "nobody would want it." 

[BambooShanks]

I'm just playing this on repeat until all this blows over

 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by Kinkyinuit

[Quark]

44 minutes ago, priest17 said:

Things like Hopkins are constantly called out. Like, non-stop. Everywhere you look. All it does is inflate their ego and get their supporters backs up. I'm in such a mood today that seeing someone who gleefully laughs at those worse off than themselves and gets paid to do it has a bit of their pride chipped away at slightly is a bit of a laugh.

Its not a massive statement or anything at the end of the day its a prank on a twat. I can see the moral ambiguity though and understand people feeling uncomfortable with it though.

That's fair. Don't get me wrong, in itself it's clearly very funny, and I have less than zero sympathy for KH. I suppose I think of in terms of giving her and her supporters that ammo of "the left can't win the argument so they resort to this" kind of bullshit.

I dunno.  It's coming from so many angles and in so many forms now it feels like trying to defend yourself from a shower of dogshit with a tennis racket. 

[Ayrshire Chris]

31 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

with what the tories are saying for the new EU deal, it would mean a customs border between England and Scotland.

Exactly, but sadly those advocating independence do what they always do when confronted with such difficulties.  Ignore it, wave the flag and bury their heads in the sand. It’s separation  at all costs for them, they think Mel aGibsons braveheart is a documentary not the piece of trash fiction it is. We saw it at last referendum when the issue of currency and using the Bank of England as the lender of last resort came up. 

[SwedgeAntilles]

1 minute ago, Ayrshire Chris said:

Exactly, but sadly those advocating independence do what they always do when confronted with such difficulties.  Ignore it, wave the flag and bury their heads in the sand. It’s separation  at all costs for them, they think Mel aGibsons braveheart is a documentary not the piece of trash fiction it is. We saw it at last referendum when the issue of currency and using the Bank of England as the lender of last resort came up. 

And you wonder why the No side is losing support...

[stuartbert two hats]

1 hour ago, priest17 said:

At least we can enjoy Katie Hopkins getting a fake Campaign to Unify the Nation Trophy (there's a video to go with it but her speech at the end is just fucking grim and I don't think this thread needs it)

Yeah, do not watch or share the actual video.  We know she makes a living from hate and outrage, let's not give her the oxygen she so badly desires.

[Hugh Jass]

[DeanoL]

5 hours ago, Quark said:

As a nation (and I'm talking about an average rather than individuals) we think we punch above our weight in pretty much every aspect. Political and economic clout, sports, military power, all of it.  We have a massively over-inflated sense of our own importance to the world.

That ability to punch above our weight came from having a massively privileged position in Europe. Veto power while being able to reject Schengan and the Euro. That strong position meant we got our own way in the EU more often than not and frankly that’s how we wielded international power. We will be an irrelevance in 20 years.

4 hours ago, eFestivals said:

with what the tories are saying for the new EU deal, it would mean a customs border between England and Scotland.

The issue is that whatever solution works for ROI/Northern Ireland will work for Scotland / England, it’ll be the same thing. So they’ll have to go down the route of saying “it’s good enough for NI but not England” which may be a challenge. Or may not be.