When will this shit end?

[stuartbert two hats]

36 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

I know someone who has worked with Cummings. This guy is literally a mastermind, pulls strings in the background, and has an insane amount of power over people.

He has very strong views for how Britain as a country should be.

And...now, don't forget this... He's a massive, massive prick.

[zahidf]

51 minutes ago, Mark E. Spliff said:

I'd have to admit that I don't know the full story because these SAGE meetings are confidential.  However, to say it's a 'non story,'  simply because Downing Street have said he's behaving himself, is taking a political position rather than staying neutral.

To use a Cummings tactic, I'll employ a populist metaphor: failing to be concerned that a man with Cummings' character, political outlook and track-record on spinning issues has taken a personal interest in this supposedly neutral, scientific advisory committee, is comparable to taking a "lets give him a chance" approach when Gary Glitter puts in planning permission for a kindergarten.

Cummings is one person in a 23 person meeting. I dont see whitty or vallance kotowing to him

[Mark E. Spliff]

2 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Cummings is one person in a 23 person meeting. I dont see whitty or vallance kotowing to him

I share your respect for scientists, and I don't believe they will sell out their objectivity.  The fundamental issue here is populism.  Cummings has the skills to whip up a populist, anti-science, conspiracy-believing army of brain dead lunatics just as moronic as Trump's hordes of mulleted SUV drivers.  You don't want an operator like Cummings anywhere near Government, let alone in the middle of a chaotic, fast-developing crisis like this.  It's like the build up to the second Gulf War - there were a lot of very principled experts and statesmen being trampled by slick operators painting a cowboys and indians narrative over a far more complex situation.  I don't know what Cummings has up his sleeve, but his objective will certainly be to drive this country further to the right and away from reason, science, fact, decency etc.

[Ryan1984]

Anyone else notice Chris Whitty has appeared to start leaving in little, Sky digs at the government’s handling and ignorance of his advice early on? There was an interview with Jeremy Hunt (below) where he mentioned a few things.

 

[Neil]

8 hours ago, zahidf said:

I'm not a fan but it seems like a non story to me

it's a non-story that an non-scientist who's job is to steer policy direction is attending meetings of the scientists who are (supposedly) steering govt policy...?  

7 hours ago, Mark E. Spliff said:

comparable to taking a "lets give him a chance" approach when Gary Glitter puts in planning permission for a kindergarten.

love this line.  

[Neil]

7 hours ago, Matt42 said:

This guy is literally a mastermind

he really isn't. Have you read any of his blog?

He's simply someone with an entitled "fuck you, I don't give a shit about your views" who others are happy to hide behind (for the moment, it won't last).

[Neil]

7 hours ago, zahidf said:

Cummings is one person in a 23 person meeting. I dont see whitty or vallance kotowing to him

Cummings is unlikely to change the scientific advice they give.

But because the advice is with him before it's with the govt, he's exceedingly likely to influence the policy positions the govt takes as a result of that advice, without the govt having the opportunity to freely consider that advice.

[zahidf]

If hes there to see the discussions and get a better understanding of the scientific arguments.... isnt that a good thing as to what his advice is going to be? Isnt the advice going to be better with more knowledge?

Dont get me wrong, I dont like him at all, but if hes not influencing the scientists in the meeting, it just seems like a non story that hes in the meeting. 

Edited April 25, 2020 by zahidf

[Neil]

4 minutes ago, zahidf said:

If hes there to see the discussions and get a better understanding of the scientific arguments.... isnt that a good thing as to what his advice is going to be? Isnt the advice going to be better with more knowledge?

you're making the mistake of believing he's there only for knowledge's sake. He's not.

He's there to get early-word on their advice, in order to put a spin on that advice within govt, to make sure that advice is used in a way which suits his purposes.

 

4 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Dont get me wrong, I dont like him at all, but if hes not influencing the scientists in the meeting, it just seems like a non story that hes in the meeting. 

the very fact those scientists know he's listening in will alter what those scientists say and how they say it.

 

[Deaf Nobby Burton]

7 hours ago, Ryan1984 said:

Anyone else notice Chris Whitty has appeared to start leaving in little, Sky digs at the government’s handling and ignorance of his advice early on? There was an interview with Jeremy Hunt (below) where he mentioned a few things.

 

From that video, I don’t get that at all, no. 

[Matt42]

37 minutes ago, Neil said:

he really isn't. Have you read any of his blog?

He's simply someone with an entitled "fuck you, I don't give a shit about your views" who others are happy to hide behind (for the moment, it won't last).

He is. He is very good at making sure the entire cabinet / government follows intricate strategy.

[Ayrshire Chris]

[Neil]

45 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

He is. He is very good at making sure the entire cabinet / government follows intricate strategy.

they 'follow' because they see the benefit to them in doing so.

But it doesn't take a genius to work a very similar strategy to Trump, it merely takes a c**t.

[jparx]

Deeply concerned about this Cummings story. That guy is the biggest cretin in/associated with the government, and boy is that saying a lot.

There's no debate here - he absolutely should NOT be attending an independent, scientific advisory board. Whether he's just sat there quietly or not.

Neil has hit the nail on the head with the above posts ^

[Neil]

PS: if Cummings is listening in for no political purpose, then surely the SAGE meetings could be made public so we can all do the same...?

 

[zahidf]

27 minutes ago, Neil said:

PS: if Cummings is listening in for no political purpose, then surely the SAGE meetings could be made public so we can all do the same...?

 

Oh 100% I agree the minutes should be public.

 

On above, the govt has access to the meeting minutes anyway. I don't see how Cummings being in the meeting would worry a decent scientist more really. 

I dont like the guy and would rather he wasnt so powerful in number 10. But hes got the govts permission to be in those meetings, so they feel it's to the benefit of his advice to them.

[Mouseboy11]

1 hour ago, Neil said:

they 'follow' because they see the benefit to them in doing so.

But it doesn't take a genius to work a very similar strategy to Trump, it merely takes a c**t.

Yep, he was involved in the complete fucking up of Education with Gove which was hardly mastermind work.

 

He gets a lot of clout for the Leave campaign which partly falls with the Remain lot being an absolute shambles

[GMF]

I think the most worrying part of this story is the last sentence of the quote on the BBC.

A No 10 spokesman said Mr Cummings and Mr Warner had attended or listened in to Sage meetings in order to better understand the scientific debate around coronavirus.

He said they "occasionally" asked questions or offered help when "scientists mention problems in Whitehall", adding that others "also listen to meetings without being on, or a member of, Sage".

"The scientists on Sage are among the most eminent in their fields," the spokesman said. "It is factually wrong and damaging to sensible public debate to imply their advice is affected by government advisers listening to discussions."

He added: "'Public confidence in the media has collapsed during this emergency partly because of ludicrous stories such as this."

That is straight out of the Trump playbook.

[Crazyfool01]

If he can get the minutes then he just needs to read them to understand what’s going on ... so there is no reason for him being there other than to exert some kind of influence ... 

[Mr.Tease]

10 hours ago, Matt42 said:

I know someone who has worked with Cummings. This guy is literally a mastermind, pulls strings in the background, and has an insane amount of power over people.

He has very strong views for how Britain as a country should be.

The government's handling of every aspect of the COVD-19 response would suggest otherwise...

[Rumblestripe]

41 minutes ago, zahidf said:

On above, the govt has access to the meeting minutes anyway. I don't see how Cummings being in the meeting would worry a decent scientist more really. 

Yeah, it's not that he may influence the scientists it is that he has influence the politicians in advance of the advice, that he can construct a certain narrative that might justify an action that may not be in our interests but further the right wing agenda that he believes in.

My question would be, "he's a political advisor, if he is NOT seeking to use this meeting for political advantage, what is he doing there, did he just get bored and fancy having a listen?"

I'd describe him as a snake but that is unfair on legless carnivorous reptiles.

I'd describe him as a c*nt but that...

[SalviaPlath]

As a eugenics enthusiast it seems obvious that Cummings is completely unsuited to membership of any mainstream scientific body or group. 

[stuartbert two hats]

1 hour ago, GMF said:

I think the most worrying part of this story is the last sentence of the quote on the BBC.

A No 10 spokesman said Mr Cummings and Mr Warner had attended or listened in to Sage meetings in order to better understand the scientific debate around coronavirus.

He said they "occasionally" asked questions or offered help when "scientists mention problems in Whitehall", adding that others "also listen to meetings without being on, or a member of, Sage".

"The scientists on Sage are among the most eminent in their fields," the spokesman said. "It is factually wrong and damaging to sensible public debate to imply their advice is affected by government advisers listening to discussions."

He added: "'Public confidence in the media has collapsed during this emergency partly because of ludicrous stories such as this."

That is straight out of the Trump playbook.

It is

[zahidf]

Isnt the govt advisors Job to advise? I dont want him advising the govt, but the guardian story insinuates hes influencing the SAGE committee, which I haven't seen really evidenced or likely.

 

it could have been the govts idea he sits in. We dont know!

[zahidf]

 

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