Football 2020/2021

[balthazarstarbuck]

27 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Using that criteria you basically make it impossible for any modern managers to be in the discussion as legacy building is something that doesn't happen in 2021 and that goes beyond the top leagues.

Would disagree with that. Managers like Simeone, Klopp, and even Pochettino left/will leave their clubs in unrecognisably better states than when they joined.

I don’t think you can say the same about Pep.

[pink_triangle]

11 minutes ago, balthazarstarbuck said:

Would disagree with that. Managers like Simeone, Klopp, and even Pochettino left/will leave their clubs in unrecognisably better states than when they joined.

I don’t think you can say the same about Pep.

In the 5 years before poch joined they were finishing 4th to 6th. I'm not sure they were in an unrecognizablly different place when he left.

[balthazarstarbuck]

11 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

In the 5 years before poch joined they were finishing 4th to 6th. I'm not sure they were in an unrecognizablly different place when he left.

Hence “even”- but taking a team from Europa League regulars to Champions League regulars is still a bigger step forward then what Peps done at City. 
And what Simeone and Klopp have done is streets ahead. 

[pink_triangle]

20 minutes ago, balthazarstarbuck said:

Hence “even”- but taking a team from Europa League regulars to Champions League regulars is still a bigger step forward then what Peps done at City. 
And what Simeone and Klopp have done is streets ahead. 

Man city haven't even had the highest wage bill in the league for the majority of the time Pep has been there. Why should they be winning everything?

[balthazarstarbuck]

6 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Man city haven't even had the highest wage bill in the league for the majority of the time Pep has been there. Why should they be winning everything?

Because no-one else can compete transfer fee wise. 

Pep’s played his cards well but its a deck stacked in his favour, and it’s wilfully ignorant to say otherwise, especially when the conversation is whether he’s the greatest manager of all time. 

[pink_triangle]

16 minutes ago, balthazarstarbuck said:

Because no-one else can compete transfer fee wise. 

Pep’s played his cards well but its a deck stacked in his favour, and it’s wilfully ignorant to say otherwise, especially when the conversation is whether he’s the greatest manager of all time. 

Man utd have competed transfer wise during that time. Checked the top clubs 40 million plus signing man u  have had 11, Chelsea 9, city, Liverpool and Arsenal 6. To say nobody can competw transfer fee wise just isn't true.

Also there are several European clubs who have spent comparative amounts.

[eFestivals]

53 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Man city haven't even had the highest wage bill in the league for the majority of the time Pep has been there. Why should they be winning everything?

They had the opportunity to do that pep didn't use the opportunities a available to him for bigger success most other managers would have gone for greater success. 

[Hugh Jass]

Pep wasn’t brought to City to win league titles and league cups. They were already managing that under Mancini and Pellegrini.  He was brought in to make them the dominant power in Europe, something for the first five years of his reign he hasn’t managed to do.

Success is measured against expectations. Guardiola hasn’t lived up to them in terms of Europe.

[balthazarstarbuck]

38 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Man utd have competed transfer wise during that time.

Man United have spent second most, and are second in the league despite being managed by a bloke who couldn’t keep Cardiff City up. 

Second of course, to the team who spent most. 

 

[pink_triangle]

2 minutes ago, balthazarstarbuck said:

Man United have spent second most, and are second in the league despite being managed by a bloke who couldn’t keep Cardiff City up. 

Second of course, to the team who spent most. 

 

That may be true this season, but in previous seasons city haven’t had the highest transfer spend or wage spend and still won the league. The idea that City have dominated under Pep by blowing away their rivals through spending isn’t backed up by facts. Chelsea have spent big and so have Man U. Pep has generally spent the money better,

Take the 10 seasons before Chelsea got the Russian money. Man Utd had the money advantage but won the league 6 out of 10 times which is same ratio as Pep.

[pink_triangle]

27 minutes ago, Hugh Jass said:

Pep wasn’t brought to City to win league titles and league cups. They were already managing that under Mancini and Pellegrini.  He was brought in to make them the dominant power in Europe, something for the first five years of his reign he hasn’t managed to do.

Success is measured against expectations. Guardiola hasn’t lived up to them in terms of Europe.

People work under that assumption, if that is the case why didn’t the board get rid of him? I think another reason they brought in Pep was he is/was the worlds best known manager and helps with the City brand.

[Hugh Jass]

22 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

People work under that assumption, if that is the case why didn’t the board get rid of him? I think another reason they brought in Pep was he is/was the worlds best known manager and helps with the City brand.

Of course it’s a branding thing, and there’s reason to get rid. Nobody is saying he’s done a bad job at all. He’s just done the bare minimum in terms of expectations IMO.

Hardly “greatest of all time” stuff.

[pink_triangle]

17 minutes ago, Hugh Jass said:

Of course it’s a branding thing, and there’s reason to get rid. Nobody is saying he’s done a bad job at all. He’s just done the bare minimum in terms of expectations IMO.

Hardly “greatest of all time” stuff.

I think people’s expectations are unreasonable though. When I was growing up and Man U were the top team nobody accused Fergie of “bare minimum” because they weren’t winning the league every year and dominating in Europe. The  financial advantage Man U had then is no less than Pep has now, in fact I would argue it was more.

As I have said I think people overstate the financial advantage city have (probably because of where they came from. They haven’t had the huge financial advantage over their rivals that people make out. As I have said in terms of 40M plus players they are no more than the other teams, they have just spent their money better.

[thetime]

United have spent about the same figure as city since pep arrived.

Until the last 2 years, united were just flushing money down the toilet. Also city were lucky not to have jose in charge. 👍

You spend big, you win titles usually.

 

Edited May 21, 2021 by thetime

[thetime]

2 hours ago, balthazarstarbuck said:

 especially when the conversation is whether he’s the greatest manager of all time. 

He's not even close.

That goes to managers that build clubs and institutions. For me it is shankley, busby, stein and clough in the UK. Pep would struggle to get into the top 5.

Media/fans get over excited on a title success. Last season liverpool were the best to grace the football field, now its city.

[Hugh Jass]

42 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I think people’s expectations are unreasonable though. When I was growing up and Man U were the top team nobody accused Fergie of “bare minimum” because they weren’t winning the league every year and dominating in Europe. The  financial advantage Man U had then is no less than Pep has now, in fact I would argue it was more.

 

Are they unreasonable though? As I said before, they were winning titles and domestic trophies under their previous managers. Guardiola was meant to be the “next level” (a phrase I hate in football), brought in at huge expense and fanfare to advance them beyond what they already had and push them towards domination of Europe. He’s been given untold financial backing yet at best he has maintained the status quo.

I’d argue City aren’t THAT much better than when he took over. They might well win the CL next week, but it’s taken five years to get even close to it.

[The Nal]

7 hours ago, eastynh said:

Pep will go down as one of the greatest, if not the greatest manager of all time.

Don't be ridiculous. He took over a Barca team with 3 or 4 of the greatest plyers ever in it who have won leagues and Champions Leagues with basically no manager.

Managed Bayern who won the CL last year and 9 leagues in a row. A one team league. 

Took over City who had either won the league or finished 2nd in the few years previous. 

He has spent nearly 1.5 billion in his career so far. Hes also a drugs cheat. Lets see him go build a team. Then we'll talk. 

[TheGayTent]

10 hours ago, eastynh said:

He did a decent job at West Ham,

No he didn’t. 

10 hours ago, eastynh said:

exactly what they needed at that period in time.
 

A Russian doll wouldn’t have done worse 

10 hours ago, eastynh said:

Well that was from the outside looking in. 

You had a shit view. 

10 hours ago, eastynh said:

He's bent as s 9 Bob note, 

You have one thing right 

[eFestivals]

4 hours ago, Hugh Jass said:

Pep wasn’t brought to City to win league titles and league cups. They were already managing that under Mancini and Pellegrini.  He was brought in to make them the dominant power in Europe, something for the first five years of his reign he hasn’t managed to do.

Success is measured against expectations. Guardiola hasn’t lived up to them in terms of Europe.

He was brought to city to win the cl still waiting......

[thetime]

2 hours ago, Hugh Jass said:

Are they unreasonable though? As I said before, they were winning titles and domestic trophies under their previous managers. Guardiola was meant to be the “next level” (a phrase I hate in football), brought in at huge expense and fanfare to advance them beyond what they already had and push them towards domination of Europe. He’s been given untold financial backing yet at best he has maintained the status quo.

I’d argue City aren’t THAT much better than when he took over. They might well win the CL next week, but it’s taken five years to get even close to it.

I suppose if you think about it logically, only 3 managers have won more champions leagues than pep(paisley, ancelotti and zindane). Champions leagues are not easy to win, I am quite surprised 3 is the max anyone has won though.

 

[pink_triangle]

2 hours ago, thetime said:

He's not even close.

That goes to managers that build clubs and institutions. For me it is shankley, busby, stein and clough in the UK. Pep would struggle to get into the top 5.

Media/fans get over excited on a title success. Last season liverpool were the best to grace the football field, now its city.

Is it possible to build institutions in 2021? I think your comparing apples with oranges. My view is that SAF wouldn't have been able to do what he did in present day, while Pep would have been able to do it in England in the during the peak Fergie years, they were both the right men for their time.

[pink_triangle]

2 hours ago, Hugh Jass said:

Are they unreasonable though? As I said before, they were winning titles and domestic trophies under their previous managers. Guardiola was meant to be the “next level” (a phrase I hate in football), brought in at huge expense and fanfare to advance them beyond what they already had and push them towards domination of Europe. He’s been given untold financial backing yet at best he has maintained the status quo.

I’d argue City aren’t THAT much better than when he took over. They might well win the CL next week, but it’s taken five years to get even close to it.

Yes, I think they are unrealistic expectations. I think the "untold financial backing" is an exaggeration, as said no more than Man Utd and other European clubs have spent heavily at the same time. City haven't really bought any "galacticos", they haven't bought in the best in the world in any position, nor have they spent more than the likes of Chelsea and Man Utd on high value players. They have spent a lot of money , but people often look at the great Liverpool and Man U teams and forget they were doing exactly the same thing.

Nobody expected Man Utd to win the league every season and to dominate in Europe under SAF, so I don't see why those same expectations should be there for Pep. 

I am also pretty reluctant to put too much stock in champions league wins. The fact Di Matteo has one does very little for his legacy. It's a cup competition which means  (relatively) average clubs, managers and players win. Real Madrid won more than one under Zidane with a team not close to the best they have had.

[pink_triangle]

41 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

He was brought to city to win the cl still waiting......

That was one reason he was brought in, as I said I don't think the only one. The day City bought in Pep they had the most famous and most successful (of his era) manager in the world. Doing that enhanced the City brand more than any player they have done during that timeframe. City are seen globally in a very different way then they were under previous managers.

It's easy to say he needs to build a team. He could reply that some of the managers mentioned needed to manage abroad and show they could be successful in different countries, with different languages and cultures. All managers mentioned great managers with very different challenges, related to the era they managed. 

[eFestivals]

44 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

That was one reason he was brought in, as I said I don't think the only one. The day City bought in Pep they had the most famous and most successful (of his era) manager in the world. Doing that enhanced the City brand more than any player they have done during that timeframe. City are seen globally in a very different way then they were under previous managers.

It's easy to say he needs to build a team. He could reply that some of the managers mentioned needed to manage abroad and show they could be successful in different countries, with different languages and cultures. All managers mentioned great managers with very different challenges, related to the era they managed. 

The only players who could have brought that widow to city were unbuyablebby city and still appear to be even with pep.

[The Nal]

12 hours ago, thetime said:

I suppose if you think about it logically, only 3 managers have won more champions leagues than pep(paisley, ancelotti and zindane). Champions leagues are not easy to win, I am quite surprised 3 is the max anyone has won though.

 

Luck of the draw sometimes aswell. I remember in 2010/11 Utd have a very easy run all season. Played some dogshit teams and Fergie played a 2nd string team in the 2nd leg of the semis. Sometimes you really only need to beat one good team to win it. City have had a very easy run of it this season.