news & politics:discussion

[Neil]

6 minutes ago, squirrelarmy said:

You need to have generations of outrageous wealth and inbreeding before you can consider yourself royalty. 

it was just an easy way to say 'when i rule the world.

 

 

[steviewevie]

31 minutes ago, Nobody Interesting said:

Half of the Bundestag is made up of candidates from the country’s 299 constituencies.

The vote for those candidates resembles a "first-past-the-post" system, where the person with the most votes wins outright. Each constituency thus sends one winner to the Bundestag.

Mixed Member Proportional, whatever the hell that is...

How many countries around the world use proportional representation? – Electoral Reform Society – ERS (electoral-reform.org.uk)

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Nobody Interesting said:

The core policies are no different.

Growth to pay for investment
Tax cuts when they can be afforded
Reform of the NHS
'Green Industrial Revolution' - without any idea of what that actually is.

Labour will be better than the Conservatives for the majority of people but not that different in reality. Those that have will soon take away if they feel threatened and so the two colour merry go round will carry on.

I think most political parties in our type of society would say they want growth to at least partly find investment.

Labour haven’t announced plans for tax yet they only say it’s not right in a cost of living crises that burden is on working families.

Reform of the NHS is wide ranging and can vary.

Labour’s Green policies are vastly different to the Tories for one they would block new oil/gas licences.

You are right that Labour won’t bring around sweeping change but the majority of the electorate don’t really want that. They just want things to be better which is what a Labour government will do.

[Guest]

 

 

[Nobody Interesting]

20 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Mixed Member Proportional, whatever the hell that is...

How many countries around the world use proportional representation? – Electoral Reform Society – ERS (electoral-reform.org.uk)

Of which half, as per my first reply, is FPTP and the Green vote rose enough to give them reprentation via that half of the system and now they are in government.

15 years ago their vote was 3% and slowly rose to 7 then 9 then 15 - and in interviews people said that they voted Green as they saw others doing the same.

So it does work, just slowly - but it will only ever work if the electorate actually votes for what they want rather than the least worst option which happens much of the time.

Also I would quite like UK democracy to actually allow me to vote for who I want - so I could choose any party and not just those who stand where I live.

In the last council elections we had 2 Lib Dems, 1 Conservative and 1 Independent (former UKIP). We all had 2 votes we were allowed to cast.
That, to me, is really not very democratic as it forced me to either not bother voting or to vote for the least objectionable party.................. but that is a whole other discussion.

 

[Nobody Interesting]

22 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

They just want things to be better which is what a Labour government will do.

I am not sure there are any parties not in government now that could make things worse so it will get better................. from a very very low base.

[fraybentos1]

41 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Mixed Member Proportional, whatever the hell that is...

How many countries around the world use proportional representation? – Electoral Reform Society – ERS (electoral-reform.org.uk)

like scotland, partially FPTP but with a proportional bit to balance it out a bit

[steviewevie]

29 minutes ago, Nobody Interesting said:

Of which half, as per my first reply, is FPTP and the Green vote rose enough to give them reprentation via that half of the system and now they are in government.

15 years ago their vote was 3% and slowly rose to 7 then 9 then 15 - and in interviews people said that they voted Green as they saw others doing the same.

So it does work, just slowly - but it will only ever work if the electorate actually votes for what they want rather than the least worst option which happens much of the time.

Also I would quite like UK democracy to actually allow me to vote for who I want - so I could choose any party and not just those who stand where I live.

In the last council elections we had 2 Lib Dems, 1 Conservative and 1 Independent (former UKIP). We all had 2 votes we were allowed to cast.
That, to me, is really not very democratic as it forced me to either not bother voting or to vote for the least objectionable party.................. but that is a whole other discussion.

 

ok, you first then...

[Nobody Interesting]

5 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

ok, you first then...

I am pretty sure I already have

[steviewevie]

43 minutes ago, Nobody Interesting said:

Of which half, as per my first reply, is FPTP and the Green vote rose enough to give them reprentation via that half of the system and now they are in government.

15 years ago their vote was 3% and slowly rose to 7 then 9 then 15 - and in interviews people said that they voted Green as they saw others doing the same.

So it does work, just slowly - but it will only ever work if the electorate actually votes for what they want rather than the least worst option which happens much of the time.

Also I would quite like UK democracy to actually allow me to vote for who I want - so I could choose any party and not just those who stand where I live.

In the last council elections we had 2 Lib Dems, 1 Conservative and 1 Independent (former UKIP). We all had 2 votes we were allowed to cast.
That, to me, is really not very democratic as it forced me to either not bother voting or to vote for the least objectionable party.................. but that is a whole other discussion.

 

safe labour where I am. I have voted Green a few times in past in GE and locals, never win.

This time I am voting labour even if they are tory fascist bastards under the control of that evil overlord starmer, because they don't often get opportunities like this...and I am not that confident that they will definitely win...too old and seen too many tory victories...

[Nobody Interesting]

12 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

safe labour where I am. I have voted Green a few times in past in GE and locals, never win.

This time I am voting labour even if they are tory fascist bastards under the control of that evil overlord starmer, because they don't often get opportunities like this...and I am not that confident that they will definitely win...too old and seen too many tory victories...

Apart from a short spell living in Colchester (Lib Dem) everywhere we have lived has been a safe Tory seat. The last 2 places were both in the top 20 safest!

Where we are now in Wales in one of only a couple of Tory seats and only the Lib Dems have any chance of beating them and given the mess they re making in the council I have little faith in them.

I have voted tactically the last 3 times - and none made any difference to the outcome - so this time, if I can, I vote for what I actually believe in even though they will not win................... if they stand of course..... and the more votes they get the next time wavering voters might then add their vote to them and so on. In the sh*t system we have it is the only way to ever get something not red or blue.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Nobody Interesting

[steviewevie]

..and the way I see it climate change is probably the biggest global existential threat of our times...and time is against us...so people can vote Green if they want but that vote is wasted because reality is they're going to win maybe a couple of MPs at the most...but that Green vote could hurt Labour in certain seats and let Tories in (actually could hurt Tory in some seats too)...and if you want uk to get to net zero or as close as possible, as soon as possible, then it has to be Labour. We haven't got time to fart about with more Tory governments and Labour fighting with itself.

[steviewevie]

Just now, Nobody Interesting said:

Apart from a short spell living in Colchester (Lib Dem) everywhere we have lived has been a safe Tory seat. The last 2 places were both in the top 20 safest!

Where we are now in Wales in one of only a couple of Tory seats and only the Lib Dems have any chance of beating them and given the mess they re making in the council I have little faith in them.

I have voted tactically the last 3 times - and none made any difference to the outcome - so this time, if I can, I vote for what I actually believe in even though they will not win................... if they stand of course!

well yeah...and that in the end is the biggest problem with fptp.

[Nobody Interesting]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

..and the way I see it climate change is probably the biggest global existential threat of our times...and time is against us...so people can vote Green if they want but that vote is wasted because reality is they're going to win maybe a couple of MPs at the most...but that Green vote could hurt Labour in certain seats and let Tories in (actually could hurt Tory in some seats too)...and if you want uk to get to net zero or as close as possible, as soon as possible, then it has to be Labour. We haven't got time to fart about with more Tory governments and Labour fighting with itself.

The UK has zero chance of net zero on the targets it has set unless massive change happens and that change costs massive amounts of money - the UK is broke.

Climate change is, as you rightly say, the biggest single thing - so we need to treat it like a war and take money out the equation.

As for Green votes being wasted - I will disagree. I do that as Tory, Labour and Libdem policies are all policies that the Greens had 20 or more years ago and are now being looked at simply because votes gave the Greens an MP and thus a voice in debates and on TV programmes. Just one voice has made  abig difference in what the main parties are now saying they will do (they will of course likely not do what they say).

[Crazyfool01]

3 minutes ago, Nobody Interesting said:

Apart from a short spell living in Colchester (Lib Dem) everywhere we have lived has been a safe Tory seat. The last 2 places were both in the top 20 safest!

Where we are now in Wales in one of only a couple of Tory seats and only the Lib Dems have any chance of beating them and given the mess they re making in the council I have little faith in them.

I have voted tactically the last 3 times - and none made any difference to the outcome - so this time, if I can, I vote for what I actually believe in even though they will not win................... if they stand of course..... and the more votes they get the next time wavering voters might then add their vote to them and so on. In the sh*t system we have it is the only way to ever get something not red or blue.

those safe seats aren't quite as safe as they once were .... I think ive voted green in the euro elections ? did that have some form of PR ? apart from that is Lib Dem here as we switch between them and the Torys 

[steviewevie]

1 minute ago, Nobody Interesting said:

The UK has zero chance of net zero on the targets it has set unless massive change happens and that change costs massive amounts of money - the UK is broke.

Climate change is, as you rightly say, the biggest single thing - so we need to treat it like a war and take money out the equation.

As for Green votes being wasted - I will disagree. I do that as Tory, Labour and Libdem policies are all policies that the Greens had 20 or more years ago and are now being looked at simply because votes gave the Greens an MP and thus a voice in debates and on TV programmes. Just one voice has made  abig difference in what the main parties are now saying they will do (they will of course likely not do what they say).

ok, well...seems naive to me that the one Green MP has made much difference to the direction the UK has gone, if anything I think Carrie Johnson has made more difference.

And yes net zero will cost massive amounts, which is why Labour is talking about borrowing massive amounts. Whether they can with the state of things is another matter.

[Nobody Interesting]

2 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

those safe seats aren't quite as safe as they once were .... I think ive voted green in the euro elections ? did that have some form of PR ? apart from that is Lib Dem here as we switch between them and the Torys 

EU elections were PR

and safe seats in by elections are one thing, in GE the blind voters who are unable to change come out and vote for their blue heroes.

[Nobody Interesting]

2 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

ok, well...seems naive to me that the one Green MP has made much difference to the direction the UK has gone, if anything I think Carrie Johnson has made more difference.

And yes net zero will cost massive amounts, which is why Labour is talking about borrowing massive amounts. Whether they can with the state of things is another matter.

Labours plans are between £28 and £48 billion depending on which set of plans you look at.

Costs of what is really needed are estimated to be in the region of £2 trillion - source, ONS

[Crazyfool01]

1 minute ago, Nobody Interesting said:

EU elections were PR

and safe seats in by elections are one thing, in GE the blind voters who are unable to change come out and vote for their blue heroes.

I think we may well see some big majorities overturned this time .

[steviewevie]

4 minutes ago, Nobody Interesting said:

Labours plans are between £28 and £48 billion depending on which set of plans you look at.

Costs of what is really needed are estimated to be in the region of £2 trillion - source, ONS

that is per year.

not sure we can afford £2 trillion. Maybe we could sell Scotland?

[steviewevie]

[steviewevie]

[steviewevie]

[steviewevie]

[steviewevie]